RE: New Audi SQ6 e-tron gets 517hp, costs £93k

[plfrench]

Cobnapint said:

I'm not sure why promoting interconnectors as a benefit has any real value. At the minute - fine, loads are normal.
From about 2032 onwards, Europe is going to be in the same boat as us, that is, needing every single mA they generate for themselves.
There'll be little to share around, especially when a whopping great high pressure sits on top of proceedings.

We could well have a surplus of electricity by that stage on an annual level and be well on the way to being a net exporter generating revenue… nice problem to have!

[AddyT.]

NickColl89 said:

There will be mega deals to be had on these if anyone is part of a salary sacrifice scheme at work, I recently had a Q8 E-Tron delivered for £564 a month, insane value for a car with a P11D of £92k

Each to their own of course but I would not be spending £564 a month on something like this!

[CLK-GTR]

Harry_523 said:

For clarity, what do all the SUV/EV haters on here suggest we drive instead?

If only Audi made a slippery version of the SQ6 with a letter missing from the name and a few less inches in height.

[plfrench]

CLK-GTR said:

Harry_523 said:

For clarity, what do all the SUV/EV haters on here suggest we drive instead?

If only Audi made a slippery version of the SQ6 with a letter missing from the name and a few less inches in height.

It’s in the post, give it a year

[PistonTim]

Motormatt said:

Gigamoons said:

Water Fairy said:

Can't see the battery tech being obsolete in 3 to 4 years time either. Sure things will have improved but if they still offer similar range to when new then they will serve a purpose for the 2nd/3rd owners

Not sure about this.
Think it was a Harry’s garage video where he was getting into battery degradation over time. Fact is it likely won’t offer the same range to the 2nd/3rd owner, it’s becoming an interesting talking point in the EV world.

One one hand the first owner can shrug and say ‘don’t care, not my problem’. But EV residuals are not great due to a limited market of used buyers interested and now there are questions arising about battery degradation that can’t be checked pre purchase. And so the first owner is potentially having to finance a higher % of depreciation, pushing up the monthlies.

Battery degradation is a valid concern, particularly as not all manufacturers make it easy for a consumer to see how much a battery has degraded over time. I would happily buy a used EV knowing it had lost a few percent of battery capacity since new and would likely lose a few % more under my ownership. Any concern would be offset knowing there is so much less to go wrong with all the other components that could throw up big repair costs vs an ICE car.

Most EV have a stated 'usable' capacity that is less then the as built maximum too, my Nissan Ariya for example lists with an 87kwh pack but the actual size is 91kwh so it would take several years at least for that to even show degradation from the regular range.

[homerdog]

wormus said:

Perhaps I’m just getting old, but I find the idea of spending £100k on such a vulgar machine quite ridiculous. Whereas when I was a kid, you’d occasionally see a Rolls Royce or Bentley and think, wow that’s nice, they’re doing well, good on them.

Perhaps when you were a kid you didn't believe that your subjective opinions translated to inarguable facts.

[Gigamoons]

PistonTim said:

Motormatt said:

Gigamoons said:

Water Fairy said:

Can't see the battery tech being obsolete in 3 to 4 years time either. Sure things will have improved but if they still offer similar range to when new then they will serve a purpose for the 2nd/3rd owners

Not sure about this.
Think it was a Harry’s garage video where he was getting into battery degradation over time. Fact is it likely won’t offer the same range to the 2nd/3rd owner, it’s becoming an interesting talking point in the EV world.

One one hand the first owner can shrug and say ‘don’t care, not my problem’. But EV residuals are not great due to a limited market of used buyers interested and now there are questions arising about battery degradation that can’t be checked pre purchase. And so the first owner is potentially having to finance a higher % of depreciation, pushing up the monthlies.

Battery degradation is a valid concern, particularly as not all manufacturers make it easy for a consumer to see how much a battery has degraded over time. I would happily buy a used EV knowing it had lost a few percent of battery capacity since new and would likely lose a few % more under my ownership. Any concern would be offset knowing there is so much less to go wrong with all the other components that could throw up big repair costs vs an ICE car.

Most EV have a stated 'usable' capacity that is less then the as built maximum too, my Nissan Ariya for example lists with an 87kwh pack but the actual size is 91kwh so it would take several years at least for that to even show degradation from the regular range.

Just found the vid in my watched list.
Think it’s quite interesting. He’s well informed and the target market who has had EVs, but has gone back to diesel for now.
The battery degradation bit is about half way through.
https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?si=SbXxOBJ_DTjkXrWl

[Sir Bagalot]

WAIT.

93 fkING Grand

[xu5]

The front end has a look that reminds me of this kind of thing.

[Nomme de Plum]

Gigamoons said:

Just found the vid in my watched list.
Think it’s quite interesting. He’s well informed and the target market who has had EVs, but has gone back to diesel for now.
The battery degradation bit is about half way through.
https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?si=SbXxOBJ_DTjkXrWl

How many more times are we going to get this video posted.

Did you not see the unequal financing comparison which made the diesel more attractive?

Such a shame that those of us with EVs that have done reasonable mileage aren't seeing any significant battery degradation, in my case negligible.

[Cobnapint]

Nomme de Plum said:

How many more times are we going to get this video posted.

Did you not see the unequal financing comparison which made the diesel more attractive?

Such a shame that those of us with EVs that have done reasonable mileage aren't seeing any significant battery degradation, in my case negligible.

Battery deg happens. It is the unavoidable reality of battery chemistry. From what I read in a temperate climate like ours, about 1.2% per year seems to be the norm.
What's your story, what's your EV and deg stats?

[Nomme de Plum]

Cobnapint said:

Nomme de Plum said:

How many more times are we going to get this video posted.

Did you not see the unequal financing comparison which made the diesel more attractive?

Such a shame that those of us with EVs that have done reasonable mileage aren't seeing any significant battery degradation, in my case negligible.

Battery deg happens. It is the unavoidable reality of battery chemistry. From what I read in a temperate climate like ours, about 1.2% per year seems to be the norm.
What's your story, what's your EV and deg stats?

Of course battery degradation happens, I said not significant. I was involved in the Data Centre industry so had some interest in battery longevity and performance.

I'm not seeing quite that much in mine. It's currently a bit less than 1%. We will see whether the degredation stays reasonably linear.

Battery performance and durability is improving year on year so the battery life issue is not really a thing at all.

The overwhelming majority of car on our roads are under 14 years old so even using your percentage this would represent just under 17% degradation. In other words still at 83%

[Cobnapint]

It's still gauling, even at 1% (what is your vehicle btw). There's the ever present thought that you've paid a lot of money for something that not only steadily loses range from day 1, but that the solution to fix it is eventually going to be a demolition ball to the nuts £30k+ worth of new battery pack. And the knowledge that any future potential buyer will be aware of this too. No wonder depreciation is almost vertical at the moment.

ICE cars seems to be the opposite. MPG usually improves with age as the engine loosens up. Plus, the car isn't guaranteed to need a new engine in 11 years time or so either. And even if it did, it wouldn't cost anywhere near that of an EV battery pack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against EVs, I borrowed a Taycan GTS the other week and came away buzzing from how good it was. The power delivery suits my driving style perfectly and I'm very interested in the Q6 e-tron. But the price - yikes.

[legless]

Cobnapint said:

No wonder depreciation is almost vertical at the moment.

I see this written a lot and I've checked several sources. I've not found anything so far to suggest that EV depreciation is any worse than that of an equivalent ICE car. Brand new cars are horrible for depreciation on the whole.

Cobnapint said:

ICE cars seems to be the opposite. MPG usually improves with age as the engine loosens up. Plus, the car isn't guaranteed to need a new engine in 11 years time or so either. And even if it did, it wouldn't cost anywhere near that of an EV battery pack.

The only older EVs I've ever seen with a highly degraded battery pack (admittedly, the pool of 11+ year old EVs is pretty small) seem to be those with astronomical mileages. At that age and mileage, pretty much all ICE cars are worth no more than scrap value too.

That's also ignoring the fact that the price of the cells continues to fall dramatically. 10 years ago, EV cells were around £600/kWh. Now they're around £110/kWh. Who knows what you'll be able to purchase a replacement for in about 10 years?

[Bryans69]

Cobnapint said:

ICE cars seems to be the opposite. MPG usually improves with age as the engine loosens up. Plus, the car isn't guaranteed to need a new engine in 11 years time or so either. And even if it did, it wouldn't cost anywhere near that of an EV battery pack.

But why would you replace a battery after 11 years? A 5 year old Model 3 for example is now less than £20k with reasonable miles. Assume you buy, and run for another 5 years. Working on 2% degradation a year, that drops its range to something like 200 miles. Given the average daily mileage for a car in the UK is something like 30 miles, that's still a lot between charges. So why wouldn't that make a good £10k buy? It's going to be far cheaper than a similar ICE to run, especially as a second "run about" doing the daily stuff. And will have a good few years left in it.
I get the obsession with range, especially with a public charging infrastructure that has a way to go, but for most journeys, most of the time, it's not really an issue

[Nomme de Plum]

Cobnapint said:

It's still gauling, even at 1% (what is your vehicle btw). There's the ever present thought that you've paid a lot of money for something that not only steadily loses range from day 1, but that the solution to fix it is eventually going to be a demolition ball to the nuts £30k+ worth of new battery pack. And the knowledge that any future potential buyer will be aware of this too. No wonder depreciation is almost vertical at the moment.

ICE cars seems to be the opposite. MPG usually improves with age as the engine loosens up. Plus, the car isn't guaranteed to need a new engine in 11 years time or so either. And even if it did, it wouldn't cost anywhere near that of an EV battery pack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against EVs, I borrowed a Taycan GTS the other week and came away buzzing from how good it was. The power delivery suits my driving style perfectly and I'm very interested in the Q6 e-tron. But the price - yikes.

I've already advised as BSc engineer i understand a little about battery technology and the likelihood of a complete new battery system is infinitesimally small, furthermore my cars batteries carry an 8 year warranty. That's the i3s I have in The UK. I have a Taycan 4S which I share with my GF in one of the Baltic states. Neither will be needing new batteries.

I've owned loads of ICE's in my lifetime and apart from a couple of diesels that improved slightly after a few thousand miles every other cars performance and economy reduced marginally.

As for depreciation, saying it is vertical is complete exaggeration. All cars depreciate from the day it leaves the showroom. There was an 8 series ICE featured in these very pages. 4,000 miles 1 year old and 31% less than new. This is the reality of new car ownership. EVs are no different.

Year 1: 15-35% depreciation. 65-85% of the original value.
Year 3: 40-60% depreciation. 40-65% of the original value.
Year 5: 60-70% depreciation. 30-40% of the original value.
Year 8-10: 80% depreciation. 20% of the original value.

My 3.5 year old I3s sits bang in the middle of this rule of thumb table.

ICEs are largely the same.

If you wish to provide actual evidence of significant battery fail issues across a number EVs please post that evidence. Likewise depreciation. The cheapest Taycans I can see are mid 40s for 3 - 3.5 year old cars. Again this is bang on normal depreciation curves. These may see a bigger slip when the new model is actually available in numbers. That is not unusual with new model releases.

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 20th March 15:20

[Nomme de Plum]

Bryans69 said:

But why would you replace a battery after 11 years? A 5 year old Model 3 for example is now less than £20k with reasonable miles. Assume you buy, and run for another 5 years. Working on 2% degradation a year, that drops its range to something like 200 miles. Given the average daily mileage for a car in the UK is something like 30 miles, that's still a lot between charges. So why wouldn't that make a good £10k buy? It's going to be far cheaper than a similar ICE to run, especially as a second "run about" doing the daily stuff. And will have a good few years left in it.
I get the obsession with range, especially with a public charging infrastructure that has a way to go, but for most journeys, most of the time, it's not really an issue

Basically it is people with little expertise or knowledge but lots of prejudice that grab onto anything negative they can . No evidence is required.

It is a bit waring that this stuff has been debunked month after month.

[Gigamoons]

Nomme de Plum said:

Bryans69 said:

But why would you replace a battery after 11 years? A 5 year old Model 3 for example is now less than £20k with reasonable miles. Assume you buy, and run for another 5 years. Working on 2% degradation a year, that drops its range to something like 200 miles. Given the average daily mileage for a car in the UK is something like 30 miles, that's still a lot between charges. So why wouldn't that make a good £10k buy? It's going to be far cheaper than a similar ICE to run, especially as a second "run about" doing the daily stuff. And will have a good few years left in it.
I get the obsession with range, especially with a public charging infrastructure that has a way to go, but for most journeys, most of the time, it's not really an issue

Basically it is people with little expertise or knowledge but lots of prejudice that grab onto anything negative they can . No evidence is required.

It is a bit waring that this stuff has been debunked month after month.

And the internet salutes you for your ongoing crusade to 'educate' people (repeatedly, on a vast array of PH threads) who don't want an EV because they don't meet their needs, can't afford one or just they think they're a bit crap.
You've got energy for the task Sir, no doubt about that.

[Nomme de Plum]

Gigamoons said:

Nomme de Plum said:

Bryans69 said:

But why would you replace a battery after 11 years? A 5 year old Model 3 for example is now less than £20k with reasonable miles. Assume you buy, and run for another 5 years. Working on 2% degradation a year, that drops its range to something like 200 miles. Given the average daily mileage for a car in the UK is something like 30 miles, that's still a lot between charges. So why wouldn't that make a good £10k buy? It's going to be far cheaper than a similar ICE to run, especially as a second "run about" doing the daily stuff. And will have a good few years left in it.
I get the obsession with range, especially with a public charging infrastructure that has a way to go, but for most journeys, most of the time, it's not really an issue

Basically it is people with little expertise or knowledge but lots of prejudice that grab onto anything negative they can . No evidence is required.

It is a bit waring that this stuff has been debunked month after month.

And the internet salutes you for your ongoing crusade to 'educate' people (repeatedly, on a vast array of PH threads) who don't want an EV because they don't meet their needs, can't afford one or just they think they're a bit crap.
You've got energy for the task Sir, no doubt about that.

It is not a crusade just disabusing posters of their uniformed positions.

Needs. For over 56% of the motoring population can charge at home and the `average annual milage is less than 7,400 miles

Can't afford one. Why should 100% of the car owning population be able to afford and EV currently. It's unrealistic and unnecessary. We trade 7.4M cars annually only 1.9M are new and the average used trade is circa £8K

Think they're a bit crap. People can think what they like and nobody is forcing you or anyone into one are they?

[Cobnapint]

Bryans69 said:

But why would you replace a battery after 11 years? A 5 year old Model 3 for example is now less than £20k with reasonable miles. Assume you buy, and run for another 5 years. Working on 2% degradation a year, that drops its range to something like 200 miles. Given the average daily mileage for a car in the UK is something like 30 miles, that's still a lot between charges. So why wouldn't that make a good £10k buy? It's going to be far cheaper than a similar ICE to run, especially as a second "run about" doing the daily stuff. And will have a good few years left in it.
I get the obsession with range, especially with a public charging infrastructure that has a way to go, but for most journeys, most of the time, it's not really an issue

I wouldn't necessarily replace it after 11 years, I was just using that as a ball park figure because the pack would be out of warranty, it will have lost a good 10% of it's capacity whilst also entering the zone where individual cells within it (and there are plenty of them) 'may' start to fail.
Why wouldn't I buy a 5 year old Tesla M3? Because with 200 miles range it'd be a ball ache going on holiday. If I was just a town driver then no problem of course.

Edited by Cobnapint on Thursday 21st March 07:44