RE: Polestar 5 set for 2024 - with up to 884hp
RE: Polestar 5 set for 2024 - with up to 884hp
Thursday 23rd June 2022

Polestar 5 set for 2024 - with up to 884hp

The Polestar 5 you'll see at Goodwood is still just a concept, but the ultimate objective is very real...


Polestar is an ambitious brand. It has to be. It’s competing directly with Tesla - which, love it or loathe it, is the big disrupter and constantly re-evaluating how car companies should operate. But Polestar is also up against the traditional manufacturers, too, which are all trying to break the near-monopoly that Tesla has carved out for itself in the EV market.

So it’s here at the Goodwood Festival of Speed with two new models (plus the limited edition of the 476hp Polestar 2 BST edition 270) that show its future direction as a sporting electric brand. The Polestar O2 concept is on show for the first time outside of Sweden. In the raw it’s a pretty stunning-looking convertible EV with some natty bits, like an autonomous drone that launches from a slot in its rear deck. (Yep, you read that right.) The idea is you’ll be able to video yourself driving it with the hood down and load the footage to social media using the infotainment system. Yeah, well it’s a concept, and they’re all about floating ideas, good and bad. But according to Thomas Ingenlath, Polestar’s CEO, the company doesn’t do pointless concepts that have no basis in future production, so expect a convertible to come that’ll look something like the O2. Just don’t bank on it having a drone.

The more imminent proposition is the Polestar 5, which is on show for the first time ever. Its maker has released some numbers for the 5 at last, and they’re big ones: up to 884hp and a targeted 664lb ft of torque from its dual-motor set-up. It's also have 800-volt charging architecture. See, Tesla is locked firmly in its sights. The styling also proves the theory that Polestar’s concepts become reality, because the prototype that’s heading up the hill looks very much like the 2020 Precept concept, from what we can make out under the camouflage. The shark nose front end and twin-blade headlights are Polestar’s new signature elements that differentiate the brand from Volvos – something that is the overriding theme of my discussions with everyone I talk to from the company. They very much want to move away from the parts bin scenario.

The obvious differences between the 5 and the Precept are its conventional, rather than suicide rear doors, the less extreme creases around the sills and bottom of the doors, regular door mirrors (although presumably cameras will be available as an option at least) - and that’s about it. Maximilian Missoni, Polestar’s Head of Design, says that “This car [the 5] is setting up the future of Polestar and as a design language from here onward. The aim is always to do something that is far enough out there to be inspiring, but at the same time realistic enough that you don’t disappoint when the real thing hits the road.” We’d say he’s achieved that goal.

One of the design challenges was keeping the car low, like a sports car. It’s easier to do this with an ICE car, because you don’t need to accommodate a large block of batteries along the floor. In an EV obviously you do. Also, the role of aerodynamics – cutting drag to improve range – becomes so much more important, so a lot of time has been spent perfecting the car’s sleek form in the wind tunnel.

The chassis is interesting, too. Both the O2 concept and 5 share the same underpinnings, which is Polestar’s first bespoke EV architecture. I asked what it’s called, but apparently it doesn’t have a name yet. It’s definitely nothing to do with Volvo’s SPA 2 platform, though. It’s unique to Polestar and the product of its engineering team based in the UK – at MIRA and Coventry. Why the UK? Well, Jonathan Goodman, global comms director, said that’s “because of the engineering culture, can do attitude and the pool of talent all the way up the M40 corridor, which you wouldn’t get anywhere else in the world.” The propulsion side is developed in Sweden, while the software, the 12-volt systems and the user interface are a product of teams on both sides of the North Sea.

One of those UK talents is Steve Swift, vehicle engineering director. I asked him why this isn’t a jointly developed platform with Volvo – wouldn’t that make sense? “The platform doesn’t work for a volume brand like Volvo. They aren’t going to produce an 800hp sports car, are they?” Well, I suppose not. There may be sharing on other elements, though, like autonomous tech, motors, battery design and software. This doesn’t mean necessarily a motor from a Volvo will find its way into a Polestar or vice versa, but the intellectual property behind it will.

The platform is a mix of aluminium sections. There are cast elements, for example in the suspension turrets. There’s also cold formed aluminium for less stressed components, such as the floor panels, and hot formed, quenched aluminium for the main structure. That process locks in the alloy’s grain structure and retains strength, but lets the engineers create intricate pressings. The structure is bonded rather than spot welded, which is lighter because you’re not adding metal to compensate for the weakness of welds, and also stronger in most scenarios because more surface area is attached along the joints.

That last point makes it very torsionally stiff. Swift says it’s not far off the twisting strength of a carbon tub, and while he wouldn’t give me a figure to back that up, he said “it’s very competitive for a long car.” And the 5 is a long car, even though that might not come across in the pictures. Something around five metres long, which gives you a clue as to which area of the market it’s aimed at. Think of it as a four-door coupe in the mould of the Porsche Panamera – a car with generous rear-seat accommodation – with greater head and legroom than a Taycan. The 5's rear head and legroom come from pushing the rear structure back behind the rear passengers' heads, with the glass roof above them not only creating headroom but also flooding the interior with light. This design has other advantages: more generous boot space and allowing for a higher, more natural rear seating position. As well as the roominess of a Panamera, the 5 is targeting a similarly dynamic drive; moreover, the Porsche is the price point that the Polestar 5 is potentially aiming for.

Polestar is very realistic about where it stands at the moment. Swift noted, quite honestly, “In terms of motor, battery and software tech, we’ve got a long way to catch up with Tesla. But I don’t think we have much to learn from Tesla in how to build a car.” Well, it has two years to catch up on the former and to cement its confidence in the latter. It's also targeting an operating profit for the first time in 2024, as well as sales of 290,000 by 2025. Bold. But there's no faulting its ambition so far. 


Author
Discussion

BeillyNoy

Original Poster:

390 posts

266 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
All other things being equal, at Porsche prices, I suspect most potential customers would go for the Porsche (quality) or Tesla (geekiness).
Unless Polestar knock it out of the park with their interior and range….?

Edited by BeillyNoy on Thursday 23 June 08:50

CraigyMc

18,369 posts

266 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
BeillyNoy said:
All other things being equal, at Porsche prices, I suspect most potential customers would go for the Porsche (quality) or Tesla (geekiness).
Unless Polestar knock it out of the park with their interior and range….?
I dunno about that. Did people avoid Daimler because there was a longer-established, high-quality steam engine maker they bought IC cars from?

ICE to EV could easily just be a complete step-change.

Limpet

6,626 posts

191 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.

Greedydog

969 posts

225 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
I suspect single make only charging networks won't be tolerated for long, is the EU not legislating to enforce Tesla to permit third party charging already? (In fact some things I've read say it is already live).

SgHawk

76 posts

159 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
Greedydog said:
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
I suspect single make only charging networks won't be tolerated for long, is the EU not legislating to enforce Tesla to permit third party charging already? (In fact some things I've read say it is already live).
Correct. EU and UK legislation is already phasing out single use charging networks. Tesla uses the same CSS hardware as most other BEVs across europe so it's a software change at this point.

There are 15 tesla charge hubs already open to all makes in the UK with more opening in a phased roll out.

mrclav

1,645 posts

253 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
SgHawk said:
Greedydog said:
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
I suspect single make only charging networks won't be tolerated for long, is the EU not legislating to enforce Tesla to permit third party charging already? (In fact some things I've read say it is already live).
Correct. EU and UK legislation is already phasing out single use charging networks. Tesla uses the same CSS hardware as most other BEVs across europe so it's a software change at this point.

There are 15 tesla charge hubs already open to all makes in the UK with more opening in a phased roll out.
If you're talking about the Superchargers in Grays, Essex there are actually 16 - I use them regularly. They're not the cheapest, mind.

That being said, I didn't know the UK/EU legislation was phasing out single use networks - it's a logical move and makes great sense!


Edited by mrclav on Thursday 23 June 10:22

911r

241 posts

55 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
i need 900hp

so im out

ChrisCh86

1,132 posts

74 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
That looks expensive. I don't want 884Hp in a family car - I'd rather than a cheaper car with maximum range. Having said that, at least it's not another SUV.

This looks well out of my price range frown

mrclav

1,645 posts

253 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
ChrisCh86 said:
That looks expensive. I don't want 884Hp in a family car - I'd rather than a cheaper car with maximum range. Having said that, at least it's not another SUV.

This looks well out of my price range frown
You do know that range and power aren't quite the same thing in BEVs as they are in ICE cars, right?

anonymous-user

84 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
The same network that will soon be available to all EVs?

J4CKO

46,933 posts

230 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
mrclav said:
ChrisCh86 said:
That looks expensive. I don't want 884Hp in a family car - I'd rather than a cheaper car with maximum range. Having said that, at least it's not another SUV.

This looks well out of my price range frown
You do know that range and power aren't quite the same thing in BEVs as they are in ICE cars, right?
Yeah, the efficiency and size of electric motors means that you may as well have the performance if you are building one, it only uses as much power as you tell it to, its not keeping 8 or 12 hungry cylinders fed all the time.

But, the point does stand that most of us want a better choice of cost effective, desirable EV's, these large, expensive mega powered ones are a bit irrelevant to most of the population.


SDK

3,581 posts

283 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
The Tesla SC network is already being opened up to non-tesla cars.

Here’s me charging my Polestar 2 using a UK Tesla Supercharger 5 weeks ago smile


22s

6,547 posts

246 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
SDK said:
Limpet said:
The big elephant in the room for anyone trying to compete with Tesla isn't their motor or battery tech. It's the supercharger network.

If you have to actually take a BEV on a trip that exceeds its range, on an even semi-regular basis, it's a gamechanger.
The Tesla SC network is already being opened up to non-tesla cars.

Here’s me charging my Polestar 2 using a UK Tesla Supercharger 5 weeks ago smile

Any high-level thoughts on the P2?

SDK

3,581 posts

283 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
22s said:
Any high-level thoughts on the P2?
It’s the best car i’ve owned, [Coming from a BMW 5 Series (G30)] and covering 16k miles since I got in October 2020.

It’s fast, quiet, cheap to run, has loads of tech (Pilot assist is amazing, really takes the effort out of driving on motorways and safer too), great connected infotainment and is constantly improving through over the air updates.

Downsides - no rear wiper
Some minor issues in December 2020 to January 21 during COVID lockdown with data dropping out for all owners meaning no working navigation or Spotify, but since then perfect!

Edited by SDK on Thursday 23 June 11:47

Durzel

12,999 posts

198 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
BeillyNoy said:
All other things being equal, at Porsche prices, I suspect most potential customers would go for the Porsche (quality) or Tesla (geekiness).
Unless Polestar knock it out of the park with their interior and range….?

Edited by BeillyNoy on Thursday 23 June 08:50
Tesla and Porsche have brand cachet, but in the former's case I wonder how long that will last.

As a Model 3 owner the Autopilot tech is - on paper at least and in the mind of the masses - revolutionary, but I suspect most if not all current generation EVs have or can be optioned with systems that are broadly similar, if not better.

Tesla's don't do "full self driving" in any meaningful sense, despite the (imo false) advertising, they are basically Level 2 lane keeping systems only qualified for use on dual carriageways and motorways, and even then Tesla are at pains to point out that it's all "in beta" (indefinitely it would seem) so it's on you if it does something sketchy. Other manufacturers are at the same level already and some are working on surpassing it.

In terms of other autonomous features, e.g. Summon, Auto Park, etc - none of it works properly in the UK at all. With Summon you have to be in touching distance of the car to move it, and Auto Park rarely if ever offers me the opportunity to park before I've done it myself.

Don't tell anyone any of this though, since everyone I've spoken to assumes my car drives me to work and back, which is why it still has brand prestige.

Where Tesla really is shocking is the state of the basic stuff. UK cars have had - in theory - matrix headlights for the past 12 months at least, as in the hardware appears broadly capable of it, but it is not activated and there's no sign of it happening any time soon. The States, which dominates the development focus, have only just made adaptive headlights (aka matrix) legal. Basic headlights on a £50k+ car is something people just accept when it's Tesla, for the moment at least.

The auto headlights in my Model 3 are easily the worst I've ever experienced. For a car with a hundred cameras, it cannot see distant rear lights nor does it react to ambient lighting being sufficient enough to not need main beam. Mine turn off far too slow in the face of oncoming headlights to be comfortable using, I have to hand hover over the stalk to pre-empt it, which makes it useless from a driver convenience tool. My 2013 Audi TTRS was night and day better, and I assume the current gen tech is even more responsive and dynamic.

Tesla in its infinite wisdom decided to do away with $5 Bosch rain sensors, instead relying on cameras & AI to reinvent the wheel. Charitably the best I can say about this system is that it works in perfect conditions. If there is drizzle, or it's dark, it either doesn't wipe at all or wipes so fast that it looks ridiculous.

Neither auto main beam nor auto wipers have improved in the 2 and a bit years that I've had my car. Neither has FSD, for that matter (£5800 down the toilet).

That is all to say that Tesla's tech superiority is mostly an illusion, the real strength is the battery/drive efficiency and Elon's Stark-like attachment to the brand (which in recent weeks is if anything a poisonous association). it is seriously deficient on the basic stuff that people come to expect from cars at this price point, and lower, and advanced technologies like the sort of matrix lighting you get on current gen Audi/BMW/Merc, etc is conspicously absent.

I imagine you pay a pretty penny for all of that stuff from Porsche, but at least you can, and I bet it works, too.

When it comes to Polestar I imagine the 5 will be dripping with all of this tech as part of the purchase price. The only downside is likely to be that it is inevitably going to be knocking on the door of £100k given it looks like its positioned to compete with the Taycan, e-Tron GT and Model S.

Edited by Durzel on Thursday 23 June 12:17

SDK

3,581 posts

283 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
Durzel said:
Tesla and Porsche have brand cachet, but in the former's case I wonder how long that will last.

As a Model 3 owner the Autopilot tech is - on paper at least and in the mind of the masses - revolutionary, but I suspect most if not all current generation EVs have or can be optioned with systems that are broadly similar, if not better.

Tesla's don't do "full self driving" in any meaningful sense, despite the (imo false) advertising, they are basically Level 2 lane keeping systems only qualified for use on dual carriageways and motorways, and even then Tesla are at pains to point out that it's all "in beta" (indefinitely it would seem) so it's on you if it does something sketchy. Other manufacturers are at the same level already and some are working on surpassing it.

Where Tesla really is shocking is the state of the basic stuff. UK cars have - in theory - matrix headlights, as in the hardware appears broadly capable of it, but it is not activated and there's no sign of it happening any time soon. The States, which dominates the development focus, have only just made adaptive headlights (aka matrix) legal.

The auto headlights in my Model 3 are easily the worst I've ever experienced. For a car with a hundred cameras, it cannot see distant rear lights nor does it react to ambient lighting being sufficient enough to not need headlights. Mine turn off far too slow in the face of oncoming headlights to be comfortable using, I have to hand hover over the stalk to pre-empt it, which makes it useless from a driver convenience tool.

Tesla in its infinite wisdom decided to do away with $5 Bosch rain sensors, instead relying on cameras & AI to reinvent the wheel. Charitably the best I can say about this system is that it works in perfect conditions. If there is drizzle, or it's dark, it either doesn't wipe at all or wipes so fast that it looks ridiculous.

That is all to say that Tesla's tech superiority is mostly an illusion, the real strength is the battery/drive efficiency and Elon's Stark-like attachment to the brand (which in recent weeks is if anything a poisonous association). it is seriously deficient on the basic stuff that people come to expect from cars at this price point, and lower, and advanced technologies like the sort of matrix lighting you get on current gen Audi/BMW/Merc, etc is completely absent.

I imagine you pay a pretty penny for all of that stuff from Porsche, but at least you can, and I bet it works, too.

When it comes to Polestar I imagine the 5 will be dripping with all of this tech as part of the purchase price. The only downside is likely to be that it is inevitably going to be knocking on the door of £100k given it looks like its positioned to compete with the Taycan, e-Tron GT and Model S.
Well said !!

Too many Tesla owners / general public think Tesla are the only ones with OTA updates, 'self driving', mobile apps etc.. when in reality most EV's produced in the last 2 years have all of this too.

The blocker with Porsche is their option list - I looked at the Taycan before I got my Polestar and even on the £150k+ models you need add another £20k in options to get the spec/kit you get as standard on Tesla, Polestar, Kia, Hyundai EV's.

For sure, for some people spending an additional 20-30% on options isn't an issue and it clearly works for Porsche, but for the average person in the range of a £100k car it's a big blocker.

Edited by SDK on Thursday 23 June 12:23

sidesauce

2,967 posts

248 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
mrclav said:
ChrisCh86 said:
That looks expensive. I don't want 884Hp in a family car - I'd rather than a cheaper car with maximum range. Having said that, at least it's not another SUV.

This looks well out of my price range frown
You do know that range and power aren't quite the same thing in BEVs as they are in ICE cars, right?
Yeah, the efficiency and size of electric motors means that you may as well have the performance if you are building one, it only uses as much power as you tell it to, its not keeping 8 or 12 hungry cylinders fed all the time.

But, the point does stand that most of us want a better choice of cost effective, desirable EV's, these large, expensive mega powered ones are a bit irrelevant to most of the population.
And there is plenty of choice in that price segment:-

Volkswagen e-Up: £22,585
Vauxhall Corsa-e: £25,805
Nissan Leaf: £26,995
Mazda MX-30: £27,145
MG ZS EV: £27,495
Renault Zoe: £27,595
MG 5 EV: £27,945
Hyundai Kona Electric: £28,950

Shall I go on?

Durzel

12,999 posts

198 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
SDK said:
Well said !!

Too many Tesla owners / general public think Tesla are the only ones with OTA updates, 'self driving', mobile apps etc.. when in reality most EV's produced in the last 2 years have all of this too.

The blocker with Porsche is their option list - I looked at the Taycan before I got my Polestar and even on the £150k+ models you need add another £20k in options to get the spec/kit you get as standard on Tesla, Polestar, Kia, Hyundai EV's.

For sure, for some people spending an additional 20-30% on options isn't an issue and it clearly works for Porsche, but for the average person in the range of a £100k car it's a big blocker.

Edited by SDK on Thursday 23 June 12:23
Porsche options theme park is essentially a USP in its own right. I would imagine that a significant amount of its well heeled clientbase actually enjoy the whole limitless (both in terms of customisation and cost) configuration process. Objectively speaking, and with the benefit of experience of other marques, I find it pretty ridiculous, particularly as often some options are "essential" for resale.

It is actually a brilliant bit of manipulation, if you think about it, getting customers to pay extra for things that they ought to assume would come standard and do come standard on other marques. Porsche, like Apple, are geniuses when it comes to getting customers to feel good about paying a small fortune for extras without pause for whether the costs are rational.

But, in the case of Porsche, you know what you're getting into. I'm casually aware of the fact that Porsche still expect you to service Taycans every 2 years, at the cost of several hundred pounds, when there is basically little that ought to actually need servicing on them.

In that respect Tesla is quite far ahead of the competition, in so much as they don't have big glass fronted buildings that need to justify themselves. That being said, Tesla's predilection for near zero human interaction is going too far the other way, in my opinion.

I'm very intrigued by the Polestar, and other brands that seem to be getting better and better with every iteration (Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 spring to mind). If this Polestar 5 is in the ballpark of £80k when its released I will be looking closely at it, but I suspect it will be comfortably more than that.

22s

6,547 posts

246 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
SDK said:
It’s the best car i’ve owned, [Coming from a BMW 5 Series (G30)] and covering 16k miles since I got in October 2020.

It’s fast, quiet, cheap to run, has loads of tech (Pilot assist is amazing, really takes the effort out of driving on motorways and safer too), great connected infotainment and is constantly improving through over the air updates.

Downsides - no rear wiper
Some minor issues in December 2020 to January 21 during COVID lockdown with data dropping out for all owners meaning no working navigation or Spotify, but since then perfect!

Edited by SDK on Thursday 23 June 11:47
Great, good to hear some real world experience. I like them. The side profile ooks sort of like a compressed Dodge Charger if you squint (really hard).

GianiCakes

702 posts

103 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
I completely agree with Durzel’s comments on Tesla. The autopilot on my model S does not work anywhere near as well as the adaptive cruise on my previous 5 series and it has on several occasions jammed on the brakes for no reason. That’s obviously alarming and I no longer use it as a result. The headlights and windscreen wipers are also dangerously bad in poor conditions; which is a shame as the car is very good on snow. The general driving experience and efficiency are impressive however and I do like having an electric car for daily duties. Good to hear that the Polestar 2 is working well from an actual owner.