Buying a 996 - My head hurts!
Discussion
I just can't make up my mind whether a 996.2 is 'worth it'.
I've got 2 cars that I'm considering one a Mk1 the other a Mk2. They are both seemingly good cars and very comparable. The price difference is fair and reasonable but I just can't call it between the two - blow the budget and buy the mk2, or pocket the change and get the mk1.
I don't mind the 'fried eggs' but can't help being drawn to the 'newer version' lights with the Mk2 - yet then again I keep telling myself it's only me and other 'car bores' that notice these things anyway so it's not worth a penny other than my preference and as I said, I don't mind them, but then I'm drawn to the newer version just because I know it's newer.... Aaaarghhh!!!.
I understand the premise of 'buy the best one you can' but then having a reasonable fighting fund left over seems equally appealing and neither looks a bad'un and anything can happen at anytime.
I like the idea of having some extra goodies (satnav, xenons etc) but then again I don't think I would pay extra for them, but it would be nice to have them if they're there.....
I actually think I prefer the interior of the mk1 (they are both Savanna - I know...) but the older one is a bit less Savanna with more black touches, but I'd have to change the steering wheel (4 spoke) so that's a few hundred quid straight away and it is that bit older...
I know this is a pretty useless post, and I don't know what I want in the form of a response, but I just keep going round and round in circles!!!
If only I could have this conversation with my wife!!!!!
Thanks for listening!
I've got 2 cars that I'm considering one a Mk1 the other a Mk2. They are both seemingly good cars and very comparable. The price difference is fair and reasonable but I just can't call it between the two - blow the budget and buy the mk2, or pocket the change and get the mk1.
I don't mind the 'fried eggs' but can't help being drawn to the 'newer version' lights with the Mk2 - yet then again I keep telling myself it's only me and other 'car bores' that notice these things anyway so it's not worth a penny other than my preference and as I said, I don't mind them, but then I'm drawn to the newer version just because I know it's newer.... Aaaarghhh!!!.
I understand the premise of 'buy the best one you can' but then having a reasonable fighting fund left over seems equally appealing and neither looks a bad'un and anything can happen at anytime.
I like the idea of having some extra goodies (satnav, xenons etc) but then again I don't think I would pay extra for them, but it would be nice to have them if they're there.....
I actually think I prefer the interior of the mk1 (they are both Savanna - I know...) but the older one is a bit less Savanna with more black touches, but I'd have to change the steering wheel (4 spoke) so that's a few hundred quid straight away and it is that bit older...
I know this is a pretty useless post, and I don't know what I want in the form of a response, but I just keep going round and round in circles!!!
If only I could have this conversation with my wife!!!!!
Thanks for listening!
I was thinking about a 996.1 or a 996.2 C4S. Went with the .1 in the end and am very happy with it. cmoose gives good sounding advice.
All I would add is that mine has very few options and that's the way I like it. Sat nav, for example, is probably better on my phone than in a 15 year old car. I do have the Litronics though, which are great until you have to pay for a replacement bulb.
All I would add is that mine has very few options and that's the way I like it. Sat nav, for example, is probably better on my phone than in a 15 year old car. I do have the Litronics though, which are great until you have to pay for a replacement bulb.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
After 6 months of internet browsing and researching all known facts and opinions on the entire internet about these cars/engines this is the first time I've heard this! The mk1 I'm looking at is a '98 (the other '02). IN THEORY (I know, I know,...) the '98 is less liable to issues? They both have similar miles BTW.IKNOWJOSEPH - Thanks for your input and comments about living happily with a Mk1 - Your message and username seemed quite profound;
All the best,
Joseph.
Based on the numbers I've seen regarding failure rates, I think I'd be more likely to put it into a hedge rather than blow the engine up. 
Personally I've never been convinced by the financial argument put forward for the Hartech rebuilds. I'm sure they're worth the money to the enthusiast, but as cmoose points out, you might not be selling your car to a Pistonheads member in the future. Importantly for me, you've not said how long you want to keep the car for; do these simple resale arguments assume you're keeping it for a year or ten? Are you going to do 5000 miles a year, or 25000?
The rebuild arguments also ignore that there's some other big bill opportunities out there. I've had a variocam replacement, rads and exhaust done. It looks like I'm going to have to get new coffin arms this month too. Get one with a good engine and you could still spend a fortune on it. How does this affect resale value?
My .1 c2 has a Savannah interior, and I admit it's possibly an acquired taste. Having said that, I'd prefer Savannah over the usual resale grey or black. The lighter colours can look awful if they're not looked after, but if they're in good condition, they look great. I really like the simple interior on the .1 too; there's no glove box or cup holders, it's just about driving the thing.
My final advice would be to get one bought. There's plenty of money sending opportunities with them, but there's more fun to be had than worries.
Personally I've never been convinced by the financial argument put forward for the Hartech rebuilds. I'm sure they're worth the money to the enthusiast, but as cmoose points out, you might not be selling your car to a Pistonheads member in the future. Importantly for me, you've not said how long you want to keep the car for; do these simple resale arguments assume you're keeping it for a year or ten? Are you going to do 5000 miles a year, or 25000?
The rebuild arguments also ignore that there's some other big bill opportunities out there. I've had a variocam replacement, rads and exhaust done. It looks like I'm going to have to get new coffin arms this month too. Get one with a good engine and you could still spend a fortune on it. How does this affect resale value?
My .1 c2 has a Savannah interior, and I admit it's possibly an acquired taste. Having said that, I'd prefer Savannah over the usual resale grey or black. The lighter colours can look awful if they're not looked after, but if they're in good condition, they look great. I really like the simple interior on the .1 too; there's no glove box or cup holders, it's just about driving the thing.
My final advice would be to get one bought. There's plenty of money sending opportunities with them, but there's more fun to be had than worries.
IknowJoseph said:
I really like the simple interior on the .1 too; there's no glove box or cup holders, it's just about driving the thing.
Love this! I've had couple of Alfas that were distinctly lacking cup holders, which became my favourite interior feature - it's a car, not a cafe!Thanks for the replies. I'd still happily have either tomorrow, but tonight I'm swaying toward the mk1.
That said the owner's gone non responsive and Wednesday is my planned viewing day. It could turn in to a test of my (im)-patience!!!
Soooo... early (98/99) 3.4 has:
- Low occurrence of bore score (they used a different piston coating on these, then changed supplier)
- Lowest occurrence of IMS bearing failure (dual row bearing, who knows why they dropped this)
Those are the two major "internet forum" worries for these M96 engines. But as said they do also crack heads and snap chains occasionally...just like any other engine could fail for any reason.
Also:
- The last ever 911 with a cable actuated throttle
- No electronic PASM stability management
- Proudly wears orange indicators, and headlights like the designer intended
- Usually cheaper (spend the extra on a suspension refresh?)
Maybe the early 3.4 is the choice of 996s (unless you go GT3). Spend a few quid on a suspension refresh (buy aftermarket TRW arms - they are the OE supplier) and an M030 spring, shock and roll bar kit (£730 from porsche) and you have a bargain, daily drivable comfortable 911.
(I have a '99 3.4...)
- Low occurrence of bore score (they used a different piston coating on these, then changed supplier)
- Lowest occurrence of IMS bearing failure (dual row bearing, who knows why they dropped this)
Those are the two major "internet forum" worries for these M96 engines. But as said they do also crack heads and snap chains occasionally...just like any other engine could fail for any reason.
Also:
- The last ever 911 with a cable actuated throttle
- No electronic PASM stability management
- Proudly wears orange indicators, and headlights like the designer intended
- Usually cheaper (spend the extra on a suspension refresh?)
Maybe the early 3.4 is the choice of 996s (unless you go GT3). Spend a few quid on a suspension refresh (buy aftermarket TRW arms - they are the OE supplier) and an M030 spring, shock and roll bar kit (£730 from porsche) and you have a bargain, daily drivable comfortable 911.
(I have a '99 3.4...)
Edited by was8v on Tuesday 7th January 09:30
Damn it! Now I can't take my eyes off the bumpers - and I have to say the mk2 wins this hands down, they just look somehow more aggressive and up to date.
...but maybe that's just because I know the 996.2 is available down the road from me today and the chap with 996.1 just will not respond to my emails......
aaarrgggghhhh!!!!!
...but maybe that's just because I know the 996.2 is available down the road from me today and the chap with 996.1 just will not respond to my emails......
aaarrgggghhhh!!!!!
swindorski said:
Damn it! Now I can't take my eyes off the bumpers - and I have to say the mk2 wins this hands down, they just look somehow more aggressive and up to date.
...but maybe that's just because I know the 996.2 is available down the road from me today and the chap with 996.1 just will not respond to my emails......
aaarrgggghhhh!!!!!
Prefer the 996.1 bumpers myself! Such a pretty shape... ...but maybe that's just because I know the 996.2 is available down the road from me today and the chap with 996.1 just will not respond to my emails......
aaarrgggghhhh!!!!!
swindorski said:
...but maybe that's just because I know the 996.2 is available down the road from me today and the chap with 996.1 just will not respond to my emails......
A big reason for getting the 996.1 was that I saw a nice one available and conveniently located whilst the 996.2 I was thinking of went cold 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's why you should look to buy a car with a Hartech rebuilt engine, providing the rest of the car is sound. The premium is likely to be very small for the extra peace of mind that most of the catastrophic engine failure modes have been covered. It's a bargain when you think about it. FWIW I paid a small premium for a Hartech rebuilt 996.2 that was still under Hartech warranty for 18 months. I have to say it gave me a lot more confidence with this notorious engine. There always seem to be a handful of Hartech engined cars for sale, which gives some clue to the extent of the issues. I suspect Hartech will be busy for years to come with these units. 
It's fair to say that all of the above advise is reasonable. I'd add that it's rather difficult to get any real data on the instances of failures - the class action issue from NA and facts such as Hartech plus others run a business on the back of this are probably all we're going to ever know.
When all is said and done, you buy either knowing that there is a greater probable risk than many other cars. There are other factors . Bore scoring (and I think D chunking?) may be worsened due to the characteristics of a tiptronic box with its second gear pull always etc. This isn't a statement of fact but it's believed the scoring happens due to high temperature and low rev, high throttle, high torque usage.
I'm not an expert and maybe shouldn't be chipping in here. I own an 03 C4S which I've put around 50k on in the last 4 years, it's been fine so far, I bought from a respected independant and only had warranty for 12 months. Have I been lucky? Maybe. Is it more likely to have a failure the more I use it? Probably. My approach has been to maintain it well and be accepting that there could be a big bill - but remember you can be unlucky with any car, maybe higher risk with these.
Which ever way you go, unless you get a great warranty or Hartech rebuilt car, I wouldn't go into it if you couldn't stomach the possible rebuild costs. If that thought would ruin your ownership then I'd say avoid it.
If you spend a few hours on the internet you'll soon be convinced it would blow up before you got it home anyway.
When all is said and done, you buy either knowing that there is a greater probable risk than many other cars. There are other factors . Bore scoring (and I think D chunking?) may be worsened due to the characteristics of a tiptronic box with its second gear pull always etc. This isn't a statement of fact but it's believed the scoring happens due to high temperature and low rev, high throttle, high torque usage.
I'm not an expert and maybe shouldn't be chipping in here. I own an 03 C4S which I've put around 50k on in the last 4 years, it's been fine so far, I bought from a respected independant and only had warranty for 12 months. Have I been lucky? Maybe. Is it more likely to have a failure the more I use it? Probably. My approach has been to maintain it well and be accepting that there could be a big bill - but remember you can be unlucky with any car, maybe higher risk with these.
Which ever way you go, unless you get a great warranty or Hartech rebuilt car, I wouldn't go into it if you couldn't stomach the possible rebuild costs. If that thought would ruin your ownership then I'd say avoid it.
If you spend a few hours on the internet you'll soon be convinced it would blow up before you got it home anyway.
swilding said:
Nothing wrong with a 996.1 but I do prefer the looks of the 996.2. You could have this one. Slightly biased but . . .
That is a lovely car and so nearly what I'm after.... Unfortunately the long haired General has decreed it WILL be black or dark blue and be a tip. Sorry.Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff