When is ‘flip’ not a ‘flip’?
Discussion
When is a flip not a flip?...
Just wondering about the relatively new concept of flipping & thought I’d throw this question out there for discussion.
Is there a consensus on the definition of a ‘flip’? Is it all things to all men (& women, of course); is it just a case of perspective?
At what point does a ‘flip’ become an astute, or judicious sale? Is there a necessary time lapse before a sale is a non-flip, or does a specific mileage have to be driven? Is selling for a profit when there’s a whiff of a market downturn a ‘flip’, or sound fiscal judgement? Does putting a car into mothballs, in the hope of future profit, constitute a sloooww ‘flip’; as opposed, to say, a quick ‘flip’?
I’m sure there are many more examples/descriptions of what might be called a ‘flip’. Off the top of my head & without too much thought, I suppose a fairly succinct definition of a ‘flip’ is “when a.n.other sells an essential unused car, for a sum greater than that you would have to pay for the same car new, if you could get one”!! Of course, there are many other definitions, as well.
Thoughts, anyone?
Disclaimer here: I’ve only ever ‘made’ money on one, one year old, Porsche: a 944s. Although in reality, because of the rampant inflation at the time, the ‘profit’ was notional rather than actual, whilst, both my previous GT3 were sold at a loss. Oh, to have a degree in Hindsight!
Just wondering about the relatively new concept of flipping & thought I’d throw this question out there for discussion.
Is there a consensus on the definition of a ‘flip’? Is it all things to all men (& women, of course); is it just a case of perspective?
At what point does a ‘flip’ become an astute, or judicious sale? Is there a necessary time lapse before a sale is a non-flip, or does a specific mileage have to be driven? Is selling for a profit when there’s a whiff of a market downturn a ‘flip’, or sound fiscal judgement? Does putting a car into mothballs, in the hope of future profit, constitute a sloooww ‘flip’; as opposed, to say, a quick ‘flip’?
I’m sure there are many more examples/descriptions of what might be called a ‘flip’. Off the top of my head & without too much thought, I suppose a fairly succinct definition of a ‘flip’ is “when a.n.other sells an essential unused car, for a sum greater than that you would have to pay for the same car new, if you could get one”!! Of course, there are many other definitions, as well.
Thoughts, anyone?
Disclaimer here: I’ve only ever ‘made’ money on one, one year old, Porsche: a 944s. Although in reality, because of the rampant inflation at the time, the ‘profit’ was notional rather than actual, whilst, both my previous GT3 were sold at a loss. Oh, to have a degree in Hindsight!
Double gauche said:
premeditated flip - when you only buy with the intention of selling on for a profit in a relatively short period of time.
Or are all flips premeditated?
imo it can be for a long period of time as a lot of cars come up after 8 months with zero miles, so flipped even after 7 months or 2 years is still flipped imo if the car has no miles is was only ever bought to make money.Or are all flips premeditated?
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 27th November 13:34
I think it has be about intent before purchase; after all. more or less everything (of a material nature) is for sale if the price is right.
You might buy a car with the full intention of keeping it, but find that the money on offer is too tempting.
Though if you do, you won't be able to take part in smug, self-congratulatory and interminable threads about the 'overs' market, which is of course an absolutely great thing to do and very enjoyable to read.
You might buy a car with the full intention of keeping it, but find that the money on offer is too tempting.
Though if you do, you won't be able to take part in smug, self-congratulatory and interminable threads about the 'overs' market, which is of course an absolutely great thing to do and very enjoyable to read.
OPC: Hello, you have the opportunity to spec a brand new GT car, when do you want to come into the dealership to spec the car?
Customer: Actually, I dont want the car anymore as I no longer have a need for it, please sell it to the next person on the list.
It would never happen!
There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE.
Customer: Actually, I dont want the car anymore as I no longer have a need for it, please sell it to the next person on the list.
It would never happen!
There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE.
v8ksn said:
OPC: Hello, you have the opportunity to spec a brand new GT car, when do you want to come into the dealership to spec the car?
Customer: Actually, I dont want the car anymore as I no longer have a need for it, please sell it to the next person on the list.
It would never happen!
There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE.
I was in this situation recently and somehow it still ended up costing me 2.5K as I needed to find the buyer asap.Customer: Actually, I dont want the car anymore as I no longer have a need for it, please sell it to the next person on the list.
It would never happen!
There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE.
From the 991RS onwards, PAG have changed tack with their slow trickle release scheme where nobody actually has any idea how many will be made. For this reason, most wannabee 991.2GT3 buyers are still awaiting a call from their OPC for one. I doubt anyone is considering throwing an extra 50 large to jump into one. I could be wrong and the UK is a special case with tight numbers though. Good luck to those lucky guys and girls that got their hands on one. Looks a cracking car.
It feels strange in the car world and I am torn as to how I feel about it. But really, this is no different to the housing market, art market, port, wine, whisky, watches, model cars, limited edition anything, etc etc.
Do we really think that the person who recently paid £400m for a copy of a painting....sorry...a "restored" DaVinci, did so out of the goodness of their heart? Or is it perhaps a good place to put some cash? An investment vehicle for various purposes where they expect to see their money (or more) out the other end? Or their kids see the same value realised?
There also seems to be less stigma around 'flipping' older cars, than there are new ones. Yet the principle is pretty much the same. Is it ok for me to have made over 50% gain on an old 50's VW that I knew when I bought it would probably net me more than it cost me during my ownership?
To be really extreme, isn't every single used car on sale right now essentially 'flipped' by the dealer? I'm pretty sure they paid less for it than they will sell it for and only bought it to make money...
All that aside, I think it becomes a shame when certain new cars seem to only be available to a certain 'club'. It's a little bit like an elite group that other riff raff are no longer allowed to be part of. It becomes less and less likely that you see those cars being driven and more likely that you only see those cars on rare occasions sat in a dealer with a 'POA' slip on the screen.
I was driving through the rain on the A1 the other day when an Aventador came past me in the fast lane. Made me smile because I love cars, but also made me smile because I thought, "Good for that guy!" - the fact that he was out in s
tty weather using the car...well...as a car!
Anyway, ramble ramble etc splode
Do we really think that the person who recently paid £400m for a copy of a painting....sorry...a "restored" DaVinci, did so out of the goodness of their heart? Or is it perhaps a good place to put some cash? An investment vehicle for various purposes where they expect to see their money (or more) out the other end? Or their kids see the same value realised?
There also seems to be less stigma around 'flipping' older cars, than there are new ones. Yet the principle is pretty much the same. Is it ok for me to have made over 50% gain on an old 50's VW that I knew when I bought it would probably net me more than it cost me during my ownership?
To be really extreme, isn't every single used car on sale right now essentially 'flipped' by the dealer? I'm pretty sure they paid less for it than they will sell it for and only bought it to make money...
All that aside, I think it becomes a shame when certain new cars seem to only be available to a certain 'club'. It's a little bit like an elite group that other riff raff are no longer allowed to be part of. It becomes less and less likely that you see those cars being driven and more likely that you only see those cars on rare occasions sat in a dealer with a 'POA' slip on the screen.
I was driving through the rain on the A1 the other day when an Aventador came past me in the fast lane. Made me smile because I love cars, but also made me smile because I thought, "Good for that guy!" - the fact that he was out in s
tty weather using the car...well...as a car!Anyway, ramble ramble etc splode
I would have thought a 'flip' could be considered as the purchase of "something" car/boat/house that you have no intention on using but believe you can make money on by selling in the short term.
If you are buying a car/house on the expectation to make a profit in 5,10,15+ years, then thats an investment?
All 2nd hand car dealers are essentially "flipping" cars - they buy for the least they can and sell for the most - its what they do and need to do to stay in business.
I've realised some profits out of cars over the last few years, not on the intention of flipping it, but because i wanted a certain car and bought it at the right price (for me) - then when i get bored a few months later i've been able to sell at a profit or at equal value, avoiding a loss. I needed that to justify to my wife why i am selling the car i really, really wanted a few months back.
I was also part of a classic car business 10 years ago - and we could usually make between 50-100% profit on stuff by buying at the right time from the right people - generally avoiding auctions, etc, but spotting those gems on ebay/CC weekly etc and pouncing quickly - it was a lot of work and meant searching constantly and being willing to travel/collect/transport all over the place. But a P/X was always great because the car came to you and with a determined seller/buyer there was a good chance of a decent profit too. It wasn't all rolling in gold though, we lost on some as well and were dealing in the sub £10k bracket so not talking about making tens of thousands of pounds on each deal. And we had to do that to stay in business as once you ad in rent, rates, wages, utilities, advertising, parts, etc etc - it wasn't a cheap business to maintain
If you are buying a car/house on the expectation to make a profit in 5,10,15+ years, then thats an investment?
All 2nd hand car dealers are essentially "flipping" cars - they buy for the least they can and sell for the most - its what they do and need to do to stay in business.
I've realised some profits out of cars over the last few years, not on the intention of flipping it, but because i wanted a certain car and bought it at the right price (for me) - then when i get bored a few months later i've been able to sell at a profit or at equal value, avoiding a loss. I needed that to justify to my wife why i am selling the car i really, really wanted a few months back.
I was also part of a classic car business 10 years ago - and we could usually make between 50-100% profit on stuff by buying at the right time from the right people - generally avoiding auctions, etc, but spotting those gems on ebay/CC weekly etc and pouncing quickly - it was a lot of work and meant searching constantly and being willing to travel/collect/transport all over the place. But a P/X was always great because the car came to you and with a determined seller/buyer there was a good chance of a decent profit too. It wasn't all rolling in gold though, we lost on some as well and were dealing in the sub £10k bracket so not talking about making tens of thousands of pounds on each deal. And we had to do that to stay in business as once you ad in rent, rates, wages, utilities, advertising, parts, etc etc - it wasn't a cheap business to maintain
As expected, the responses are varied but surprisingly, as far as I can make out, without the spite & venom towards ‘flippers’ on view on numerous other forum leads. It appears a few posters are giving examples of the ‘flip’ in other real life situations, which if not actually endorsing flipping, certainly partially justify the practice – if I’m reading things properly?
Is the villain Porsche & their marketing Department in the way they drip feed allocations & keep actual build numbers secret; by doing so, hyping the whole Porsche model range by proxy? Not only does that encourage the ‘flip’; it also cuckolds any owner’s use of the vehicle. By this I mean an inverse law of use begins to apply: as the notional/realisable value of a vehicle increases the driven mileage tends to decrease. Hence, wannabe buyers, & new owner’s, are intentionally/unintentionally manipulated, however minimally. As v8ksn says “There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE”: that prospect must have at least some impact on the majority of owner’s psyche.
Is the villain Porsche & their marketing Department in the way they drip feed allocations & keep actual build numbers secret; by doing so, hyping the whole Porsche model range by proxy? Not only does that encourage the ‘flip’; it also cuckolds any owner’s use of the vehicle. By this I mean an inverse law of use begins to apply: as the notional/realisable value of a vehicle increases the driven mileage tends to decrease. Hence, wannabe buyers, & new owner’s, are intentionally/unintentionally manipulated, however minimally. As v8ksn says “There are not many people out there who would reject the chance to grab £50,000 TAX-FREE”: that prospect must have at least some impact on the majority of owner’s psyche.
I think Porsche consider it a flip when a new car is sold on for a profit say up to a year after it was bought...that's not confined to GT cars. Things like Targa GTS's fit that description too...I know my OPC got very upset when a Targa GTS it supplied ended up at an independent dealer....although I think they were equally keen to make sure Porsche GB didn't find out.
Porsche911R said:
imo it can be for a long period of time as a lot of cars come up after 8 months with zero miles, so flipped even after 7 months or 2 years is still flipped imo if the car has no miles is was only ever bought to make money.
911r has answered your questionEdited by Porsche911R on Monday 27th November 13:34
[quote=PhantomPH]
I was driving through the rain on the A1 the other day when an Aventador came past me in the fast lane. Made me smile because I love cars, but also made me smile because I thought, "Good for that guy!" - the fact that he was out in stty weather using the car...
We are here for fun time not a long time, good on them... far more enjoyment than looking at it.
I was driving through the rain on the A1 the other day when an Aventador came past me in the fast lane. Made me smile because I love cars, but also made me smile because I thought, "Good for that guy!" - the fact that he was out in s
tty weather using the car...We are here for fun time not a long time, good on them... far more enjoyment than looking at it.
Porsche911R said:
imo it can be for a long period of time as a lot of cars come up after 8 months with zero miles, so flipped even after 7 months or 2 years is still flipped imo if the car has no miles is was only ever bought to make money.
911r has answered your questionEdited by Porsche911R on Monday 27th November 13:34
Cheib said:
I think Porsche consider it a flip when a new car is sold on for a profit say up to a year after it was bought...that's not confined to GT cars. Things like Targa GTS's fit that description too...I know my OPC got very upset when a Targa GTS it supplied ended up at an independent dealer....although I think they were equally keen to make sure Porsche GB didn't find out.
But if the Targa was sold through them surely it would be okay from their point of view?mc_blue said:
Cheib said:
I think Porsche consider it a flip when a new car is sold on for a profit say up to a year after it was bought...that's not confined to GT cars. Things like Targa GTS's fit that description too...I know my OPC got very upset when a Targa GTS it supplied ended up at an independent dealer....although I think they were equally keen to make sure Porsche GB didn't find out.
But if the Targa was sold through them surely it would be okay from their point of view?anonymous said:
[redacted]
Can't disagree with this, but what if Porsche only limited the 911R, GT3 RS and Turbo S but didn't limit production on the GT3? Would it ease the problem (if there is one)?I was at a PCGB track day in September and out of approximately 50 Porsches in the paddock, only 3 were GT3s (996.2 GT3, 997.2 GT3 RS and 991 GT3 RS) - that can't be right.
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