Why is the 996 GT2 considered a widow maker?
Discussion
Well not exactly the GT2, but I’ve spoken to a couple of people about a RWD conversion on my lightly tuned 996 turbo, people who’s opinion I respect have warned me against it, however I’m struggling to understand why, there are plenty of 500 bhp RWD cars around these days, including Singers latest Turbos.
Is it down to modern electronics providing a safety net for enthusiastic throttle use?
Will / would I be flung through the nearest hedge backwards?
Is it down to modern electronics providing a safety net for enthusiastic throttle use?
Will / would I be flung through the nearest hedge backwards?
It's really about the torque and its delivery, on a RWD 911 turbo torque ramping up quickly and to a level above ~700NM you really need the PASM to keep yourself out of the hedge as on UK roads the cambers will make 2WD almost impossible to control.
The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ?
I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous.
The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine.
The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode.
The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ?
I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous.
The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine.
The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode.
PSM I managed to put my 997 on the roof at very high speed. It was ultimately a tyre/damp spot on one side issue more so than torque, but the way it deploys power/torque and the rudimentary PSM (combined with a lack of driving skills) did not help. I suspect with 4wd it would have maybe just about been fine. I would love a GT2 again at some point and I would definitely get one with a cage again as that thing is not just for show.
There was no PSM/traction control in the 996GT2 so I suppose it wasn’t really suitable for unfamiliar drivers.
I run 506bhp/480lb/Ft through the rear wheels of my 991, buts it’s got a wave track LSD and 305 section modern rubber. The function of these two items will have a big say in how you get on.
I run 506bhp/480lb/Ft through the rear wheels of my 991, buts it’s got a wave track LSD and 305 section modern rubber. The function of these two items will have a big say in how you get on.
TB993tt said:
It's really about the torque and its delivery, on a RWD 911 turbo torque ramping up quickly and to a level above ~700NM you really need the PASM to keep yourself out of the hedge as on UK roads the cambers will make 2WD almost impossible to control.
The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ?
I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous.
The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine.
The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode.
I've only experienced the 991 GT2rs and its essentially a pussycat, it has a hell of a lot of mechanical grip even before the electronics kick in. I suppose 325 width tyres help as well. We were doing some filming with my friends and it was hooking up in 1st on a launch repeatedly. I cant say i'd dare drive a 993 or 996 turbo with rwd in the same manner The Singers quote 750NM on their 750hp models which will be challenging but I presume they have some decent traction control strategy in place and are any of them actually driven at pace ?
I had 800NM on my old 993 turbo which I ran in full 2WD mode a la GT2 and it literally wanted to spit me into a hedge everytime I deployed full torque, its Drexler LSD possibly even made it worse on cambered UK roads. With the 4WD drive reinstalled the drive was exciting but not dangerous.
The 997GT2 and RS came with ~700NM and at that level the PASM light would flash regularly even when it seemed like you were fine.
The 991GT2RS has 750NM and has 16 year newer systems to keep it on the road in 2WD mode.
My 996 Turbo S (with 4wd) was pretty quick and in the damp the PSM system was definitely kept busy on greasy roads once on boost.
I'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option.
So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation.
I'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option.
So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation.
Groundhog Day ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Nothing inherently dangerous about the 996 GT2, the f*ckwits that get behind the wheel always were, and always will be the problem...
That's not to say they can't be improved and made easier and nicer to drive.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Nothing inherently dangerous about the 996 GT2, the f*ckwits that get behind the wheel always were, and always will be the problem...
That's not to say they can't be improved and made easier and nicer to drive.
killysprint said:
My 996 Turbo S (with 4wd) was pretty quick and in the damp the PSM system was definitely kept busy on greasy roads once on boost.
I'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option.
So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation.
Turbo S 450hpI'm pretty sure at launch the 996 GT2, which had more grunt than the turbo S and obviously 2wd, didn't have PSM as std or as an option.
So it had no nanny aids, and for the unprepared would chew you up and spit you out if it wasn't treated with respect. hence the reputation.
GT2 462hp.
Same turbos, same intercoolers, same exhaust. Different map.
Grantstown said:
There was no PSM/traction control in the 996GT2 so I suppose it wasn t really suitable for unfamiliar drivers.
Came on early Cup2s as well I imagine.Did a few breakfast runs where a guy brought out a 996 GT2. He never crashed once to be fair!
Edited by John D. on Thursday 12th March 13:29
WCZ said:
it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that
I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
Ah the famous GT2 window maker I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
WCZ said:
it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that
I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
Ah the famous GT2 window maker I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
WCZ said:
it literally made people windows is partly why they call it that
I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
Safe to assume, they weren't as "experienced" as they thought they were then.I used to go to track days with my dad and back when they first came out 2 regulars of RMA track days were killed by theirs, both were experienced drivers and another person my dad knew had a serious accident in his
Cars don't kill people, people's ineptitude behind the wheel, unfortunately does.
I've owned two 996 GT2's, and done 30K miles behind the wheel of them in ALL weathers.
I'm no driving god, but they were driven very quickly and with respect.
A driving day with the legendary Bernard Aubrey in mine, opened my eyes and helped me to understand what was required to drive them quickly and safely.
Bernard Aubrey
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Bernard was once described by former F1 driver and Le Mans winner Richard Attwood, as 'Simply the best road instructor in the country' ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Bernard was once described by former F1 driver and Le Mans winner Richard Attwood, as 'Simply the best road instructor in the country' ...
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