Normal people don't care about cylinders? I'm not so sure.
Discussion
I know this debate has been done to death, but I wanted to share my own anecdotal thoughts on the whole 'turbo 4' argument.
Lets do the end first - I think that the 718 is a fantastic car and the more I see the 718Cay the more I think they are such a handsome car...but then they have been for generations, so that's not the point. I really, really do not like the sound of the 718 or 718S. I just don't. Do I care that the engine is a 4cyl? Not if it sounded like a special sports car, no.
Anyway, I have really noticed now many people comment on what is ultimately the engine in my 981CGTS. Colleagues of all shapes and sizes regularly pass comment about the car sounding "epic" or "awesome" or any other cool word to express their positivity. And that's in a car park containing new Civic Type-R's, RS Focuses, Audi RS3's and even a very, very special Bentley Conti...which attracts similar looks and smiles from the rest of the staff.
So it seems people in general DO like how a sportscar sounds - because they expect a sportscar to sound 'special' - and by that I mean different to any other fast car they usually see (eg. hot hatch).
By contrast, I have also been approached by a middle-aged female colleague who said, "I don't normally like Porsches, but yours is gorgeous" - which I am sure was more about it being the first one she has been able to look at close up and actually appreciate visually...so Porsche would get a 718 sale from her because it was about the looks. Swings and apples...
But this idea that the stereotype 'woman' buyer doesn't know what they are buying does not sit well with what I have experienced so far.
Final anecdote was from yesterday (which prompted this thread post) when I parked next to a 987 Boxster S and climbed out at the same time as the driver - a not unattractive and very well presented female in her early late 30's (perhaps!!! I am s
t at guessing ages). We exchanged pleasantries about the respective cars and I stood there whilst she said how she had chosen her car at the time because of it's 3.2ltr 6cyl and she was keeping hold of it instead of upgrading because she didn't want the new 4cyl...
Now apart from me instantly wondering if I was meeting the ideal woman the key take away from that is that it's really not just the geeks amongst us who are bothered about the oily bits of a car - no matter how much we think it is. Porsche have not yet received an order from her for a new 718 because of the engine.
I don't think the Porsche execs are going to lose any sleep over that since 718s are selling well, but does the current 718 suffer from a reduced feeling of 'special' because of it's engine sound? Absolutely. And I am pretty sure Porsche would prefer to build cars that people had an emotion connection to even as a bystander, because that's how aspirational products remain aspirational.
Lets do the end first - I think that the 718 is a fantastic car and the more I see the 718Cay the more I think they are such a handsome car...but then they have been for generations, so that's not the point. I really, really do not like the sound of the 718 or 718S. I just don't. Do I care that the engine is a 4cyl? Not if it sounded like a special sports car, no.
Anyway, I have really noticed now many people comment on what is ultimately the engine in my 981CGTS. Colleagues of all shapes and sizes regularly pass comment about the car sounding "epic" or "awesome" or any other cool word to express their positivity. And that's in a car park containing new Civic Type-R's, RS Focuses, Audi RS3's and even a very, very special Bentley Conti...which attracts similar looks and smiles from the rest of the staff.
So it seems people in general DO like how a sportscar sounds - because they expect a sportscar to sound 'special' - and by that I mean different to any other fast car they usually see (eg. hot hatch).
By contrast, I have also been approached by a middle-aged female colleague who said, "I don't normally like Porsches, but yours is gorgeous" - which I am sure was more about it being the first one she has been able to look at close up and actually appreciate visually...so Porsche would get a 718 sale from her because it was about the looks. Swings and apples...
But this idea that the stereotype 'woman' buyer doesn't know what they are buying does not sit well with what I have experienced so far.
Final anecdote was from yesterday (which prompted this thread post) when I parked next to a 987 Boxster S and climbed out at the same time as the driver - a not unattractive and very well presented female in her early late 30's (perhaps!!! I am s
t at guessing ages). We exchanged pleasantries about the respective cars and I stood there whilst she said how she had chosen her car at the time because of it's 3.2ltr 6cyl and she was keeping hold of it instead of upgrading because she didn't want the new 4cyl...Now apart from me instantly wondering if I was meeting the ideal woman the key take away from that is that it's really not just the geeks amongst us who are bothered about the oily bits of a car - no matter how much we think it is. Porsche have not yet received an order from her for a new 718 because of the engine.
I don't think the Porsche execs are going to lose any sleep over that since 718s are selling well, but does the current 718 suffer from a reduced feeling of 'special' because of it's engine sound? Absolutely. And I am pretty sure Porsche would prefer to build cars that people had an emotion connection to even as a bystander, because that's how aspirational products remain aspirational.
I'd tend to agree; buyers, myself included (and probably Mrs Digga too, who likes here engines), male or female will regard the 4 cylinder soundtrack of the 718 a retrograde step.
However, we're looking at this from the basis of the Boxter/Cayman having been offered, previously, with the 6 cylinder boxer engine which, in and of itself, might arguably have been a mistake in the first place. Granted, back in the day, Porsche desperately needed the sales, but that is perhaps where things went awry.
If the Boxter and Cayman had beguin life as light, nimble, chuckable successors to the 356/550, would anyone have cared?
However, we're looking at this from the basis of the Boxter/Cayman having been offered, previously, with the 6 cylinder boxer engine which, in and of itself, might arguably have been a mistake in the first place. Granted, back in the day, Porsche desperately needed the sales, but that is perhaps where things went awry.
If the Boxter and Cayman had beguin life as light, nimble, chuckable successors to the 356/550, would anyone have cared?
I went out of my way yesterday, windows down, to take an indirect route from Coventry back home so I could enjoy the sound of the engine, in Sport Manual mode, as I accelerated away from the various junctions, rather than sit on the motorway. I smiled a little more as I realised I had to go through...
It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
PhantomPH said:
I know this debate has been done to death, but I wanted to share my own anecdotal thoughts on the whole 'turbo 4' argument.
Lets do the end first - I think that the 718 is a fantastic car and the more I see the 718Cay the more I think they are such a handsome car...but then they have been for generations, so that's not the point. I really, really do not like the sound of the 718 or 718S. I just don't. Do I care that the engine is a 4cyl? Not if it sounded like a special sports car, no.
Anyway, I have really noticed now many people comment on what is ultimately the engine in my 981CGTS. Colleagues of all shapes and sizes regularly pass comment about the car sounding "epic" or "awesome" or any other cool word to express their positivity. And that's in a car park containing new Civic Type-R's, RS Focuses, Audi RS3's and even a very, very special Bentley Conti...which attracts similar looks and smiles from the rest of the staff.
So it seems people in general DO like how a sportscar sounds - because they expect a sportscar to sound 'special' - and by that I mean different to any other fast car they usually see (eg. hot hatch).
By contrast, I have also been approached by a middle-aged female colleague who said, "I don't normally like Porsches, but yours is gorgeous" - which I am sure was more about it being the first one she has been able to look at close up and actually appreciate visually...so Porsche would get a 718 sale from her because it was about the looks. Swings and apples...
But this idea that the stereotype 'woman' buyer doesn't know what they are buying does not sit well with what I have experienced so far.
Final anecdote was from yesterday (which prompted this thread post) when I parked next to a 987 Boxster S and climbed out at the same time as the driver - a not unattractive and very well presented female in her early late 30's (perhaps!!! I am st at guessing ages). We exchanged pleasantries about the respective cars and I stood there whilst she said how she had chosen her car at the time because of it's 3.2ltr 6cyl and she was keeping hold of it instead of upgrading because she didn't want the new 4cyl...
Now apart from me instantly wondering if I was meeting the ideal woman the key take away from that is that it's really not just the geeks amongst us who are bothered about the oily bits of a car - no matter how much we think it is. Porsche have not yet received an order from her for a new 718 because of the engine.
I don't think the Porsche execs are going to lose any sleep over that since 718s are selling well, but does the current 718 suffer from a reduced feeling of 'special' because of it's engine sound? Absolutely. And I am pretty sure Porsche would prefer to build cars that people had an emotion connection to even as a bystander, because that's how aspirational products remain aspirational.
for me the engine = sport cars, I have a golf with a 4 pot and it's bloody fast and fun (the new CS) but it is just a 4 pot, so why spend £75k on a 4 pot when a Golf does it all with a class winning engine. Lets do the end first - I think that the 718 is a fantastic car and the more I see the 718Cay the more I think they are such a handsome car...but then they have been for generations, so that's not the point. I really, really do not like the sound of the 718 or 718S. I just don't. Do I care that the engine is a 4cyl? Not if it sounded like a special sports car, no.
Anyway, I have really noticed now many people comment on what is ultimately the engine in my 981CGTS. Colleagues of all shapes and sizes regularly pass comment about the car sounding "epic" or "awesome" or any other cool word to express their positivity. And that's in a car park containing new Civic Type-R's, RS Focuses, Audi RS3's and even a very, very special Bentley Conti...which attracts similar looks and smiles from the rest of the staff.
So it seems people in general DO like how a sportscar sounds - because they expect a sportscar to sound 'special' - and by that I mean different to any other fast car they usually see (eg. hot hatch).
By contrast, I have also been approached by a middle-aged female colleague who said, "I don't normally like Porsches, but yours is gorgeous" - which I am sure was more about it being the first one she has been able to look at close up and actually appreciate visually...so Porsche would get a 718 sale from her because it was about the looks. Swings and apples...
But this idea that the stereotype 'woman' buyer doesn't know what they are buying does not sit well with what I have experienced so far.
Final anecdote was from yesterday (which prompted this thread post) when I parked next to a 987 Boxster S and climbed out at the same time as the driver - a not unattractive and very well presented female in her early late 30's (perhaps!!! I am s
t at guessing ages). We exchanged pleasantries about the respective cars and I stood there whilst she said how she had chosen her car at the time because of it's 3.2ltr 6cyl and she was keeping hold of it instead of upgrading because she didn't want the new 4cyl...Now apart from me instantly wondering if I was meeting the ideal woman the key take away from that is that it's really not just the geeks amongst us who are bothered about the oily bits of a car - no matter how much we think it is. Porsche have not yet received an order from her for a new 718 because of the engine.
I don't think the Porsche execs are going to lose any sleep over that since 718s are selling well, but does the current 718 suffer from a reduced feeling of 'special' because of it's engine sound? Absolutely. And I am pretty sure Porsche would prefer to build cars that people had an emotion connection to even as a bystander, because that's how aspirational products remain aspirational.
I love the TTRS/RS3 engine, that sounds amazing, I had one and loved that engine, a 718 for £70k with a 4 pot, you got to be joking right ! once the Cayman was a choice vs a 911 I wanted a mid engine car with more than 4 pistons !! the 718 just feels like a cheap car now but it's expensive.
I think Porsche will sell more 911's now, so the 718 could have been a good plan from them plus it's cheaper to make than the 981 so again win win for Porsche.
The 987 and 981 seems like cheap bargains imo when looking at 911's, now 718's look/sound entry level :-( so I'am out But Porsche are happy as that puts me upto the 911 models.
The RS3 in the car park sounds great for sure, but it still sounds like what it is - a hot hatch.
Given a choice (imagine there was a 6cyl 718 in the lineup, offering engine choices like you have with almost any other car from Range Rover to Corsa) I really wonder how many people would choose the 4-pot or the 6-pot. To make it more interesting, now imagine if the price was the same no matter which engine.
I think it LOOKS like people don't care because the choice has been taken away from them. So to many it's a 4-pot Porsche or no Porsche...and if you want a Porsche, then it's an easy choice to make.
Lets remember that manufacturers do not do a poll before changing their engine range. The small+turbo has been forced upon us by the ever-changing world of regulation (and perhaps cost).
Given a choice (imagine there was a 6cyl 718 in the lineup, offering engine choices like you have with almost any other car from Range Rover to Corsa) I really wonder how many people would choose the 4-pot or the 6-pot. To make it more interesting, now imagine if the price was the same no matter which engine.
I think it LOOKS like people don't care because the choice has been taken away from them. So to many it's a 4-pot Porsche or no Porsche...and if you want a Porsche, then it's an easy choice to make.
Lets remember that manufacturers do not do a poll before changing their engine range. The small+turbo has been forced upon us by the ever-changing world of regulation (and perhaps cost).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I find flaw in your logic that companies have it researched so know...etc...etc. If that was the case, would they be making a concerted effort to change the exhaust system/note for the GTS 718? Nope, because 'people don't care'.It's cool that you think one way and I think another - that's what makes the world go around. However, I could hand you a bunch of examples of companies making changes only to find out they were a stupid move. I give you 'New Coke' as a starter for 10...
DJMC said:
I went out of my way yesterday, windows down, to take an indirect route from Coventry back home so I could enjoy the sound of the engine, in Sport Manual mode, as I accelerated away from the various junctions, rather than sit on the motorway. I smiled a little more as I realised I had to go through...
It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
Bloody child......It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
Just make sure you never really grow up, there's too much fun to be had
Gary C said:
DJMC said:
I went out of my way yesterday, windows down, to take an indirect route from Coventry back home so I could enjoy the sound of the engine, in Sport Manual mode, as I accelerated away from the various junctions, rather than sit on the motorway. I smiled a little more as I realised I had to go through...
It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
Bloody child......It is a very special engine.
Much as I loved my 6cyl E46 330ci, it never shrieked in such a way as the 981's engine. Fab!
Just make sure you never really grow up, there's too much fun to be had
They all seem to be over as soon as they start!When Jaguar first announced the XJ220 it was going to be fitted with a V12 engine. For reasons I've never been bothered to find out, they decided to change the engine to a turbo V6.
A lot of buyers who had placed pre-orders based on the original specs of the car cancelled their order due to the change in engine. I think from that it's fair to say that the people do care about cylinders in their cars, or at least they do in cars that are beyond the average daily run around.
A lot of buyers who had placed pre-orders based on the original specs of the car cancelled their order due to the change in engine. I think from that it's fair to say that the people do care about cylinders in their cars, or at least they do in cars that are beyond the average daily run around.
There are plenty of people like us who do care. I dont really want 4 cylinders as it was the 6 cylinder sound that drew me to Porsche years ago. I have never bought a brand new Porsche though.
There are also plenty of people out there new to Porsche and will go and buy a new boxster or cayman as they dont know any different. To them they are just buying a porsche.
I think the point is there are plenty of people out there who will go and buy the 4 pots. There are also the rest of us who prefer the flat 6 but we may not be the people who go and buy these cars new.
There are also plenty of people out there new to Porsche and will go and buy a new boxster or cayman as they dont know any different. To them they are just buying a porsche.
I think the point is there are plenty of people out there who will go and buy the 4 pots. There are also the rest of us who prefer the flat 6 but we may not be the people who go and buy these cars new.
Having driven all the Boxster/Cayman iterations and many 911s, I have to agree that you could own and enjoy a 981 (2.7/S/GTS/GT4/Manual/PDK.....), and never envy any other Porsche owner.
And, we're not alone - very nice 6-page feature in this week's Autocar where they try to determine the criteria for the perfect real world driver's car, and conclude ".....right now, and so far as we can determine, a Cayman hits the driving pleasure 'sweet spot' better than anything else we can think of!"
And, we're not alone - very nice 6-page feature in this week's Autocar where they try to determine the criteria for the perfect real world driver's car, and conclude ".....right now, and so far as we can determine, a Cayman hits the driving pleasure 'sweet spot' better than anything else we can think of!"
There is an assumption that Porsche buyers are a homogeneous lot - which isn't true. Some buy for the name/image, some for the dynamics, some for the looks, sound, some for quality, most, I suspect for a combination of those factors. It's because Porsche can appeal to a wide constuancy that it is so successful.
To suggest that 4/6 cylinders or even sound is a big deal to ALL sports car buyers is also simplistic. Ask REALLY focussed sports car buyers of Caterhams, Atoms Radicals etc. It's because Porsche don't make REALLY focussed cars that their buyers expect more than just dynamics and for some sound is high on the list of their priorities.
To suggest that 4/6 cylinders or even sound is a big deal to ALL sports car buyers is also simplistic. Ask REALLY focussed sports car buyers of Caterhams, Atoms Radicals etc. It's because Porsche don't make REALLY focussed cars that their buyers expect more than just dynamics and for some sound is high on the list of their priorities.
Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 16th August 20:54
i THINK IF WE COULD BE ALLOWED TO SEE PORSCHE SALES BOOK (sorry caps off now) we would see that the sales of 718 are relatively strong BUT (no caps cock up this time) they are to non-existing Porsche customers. Great from a Porsche point of view; expanding the marque's attraction. I suspect (very strongly) that sale to existing Porsche customers is slow.
I bought my 987 after many years of saving and lusting. I was then exposed after two years to the 981, and HAD to have one as it was a step change.............. I have now been exposed to the 718 and am ambivolent. The lack of a 6 pot is a step to far (for me). The 718 is a very expensive 4 cylinder car that does not sound too great (to my ears) despite it's supposed improvements. Having experienced it/them I am not convinced about the 'improvements' - a lot I suspect is slight geometry change, which can be experienced through adjustment - obviously. The Subaruesque exhaust just does nothing for me. It may be quicker due to its forced induction, but for me the sound and experience has been diluted.
I believe that Porsche know this. The object s to attract new buyers to the brand, and the handling etc will do that. The owners of hot hatch 4 pots will buy into brand Porsche. This is an excursion for Porsche, they have tended to target existing customers primarily. The object is to expand the customer base and 718 will do that. The second part of the strategy is to move the 981 owners on to 991.2. A good business strategy. However, for long term Cayster owners with shallow pockets (me) this will result in customers looking elsewhere. There is nothing to compare of course, but I, and I suspect others want to drive and own a 6 cylinder Porsche.........................
I bought my 987 after many years of saving and lusting. I was then exposed after two years to the 981, and HAD to have one as it was a step change.............. I have now been exposed to the 718 and am ambivolent. The lack of a 6 pot is a step to far (for me). The 718 is a very expensive 4 cylinder car that does not sound too great (to my ears) despite it's supposed improvements. Having experienced it/them I am not convinced about the 'improvements' - a lot I suspect is slight geometry change, which can be experienced through adjustment - obviously. The Subaruesque exhaust just does nothing for me. It may be quicker due to its forced induction, but for me the sound and experience has been diluted.
I believe that Porsche know this. The object s to attract new buyers to the brand, and the handling etc will do that. The owners of hot hatch 4 pots will buy into brand Porsche. This is an excursion for Porsche, they have tended to target existing customers primarily. The object is to expand the customer base and 718 will do that. The second part of the strategy is to move the 981 owners on to 991.2. A good business strategy. However, for long term Cayster owners with shallow pockets (me) this will result in customers looking elsewhere. There is nothing to compare of course, but I, and I suspect others want to drive and own a 6 cylinder Porsche.........................
Bennachie said:
Having experienced it/them I am not convinced about the 'improvements' - a lot I suspect is slight geometry change, which can be experienced through adjustment - obviously.
I agree completely. I've just had my CGTS set up to the limit of adjustment all round and it handles superbly, much more confidence inspiring than it was before with more stability and reduced understeer. I never thought such a simple (and cheap!) thing could make such a difference. If you're driving around in a non-geo'd Cayster or 911 get it done now!Koln-RS said:
Having driven all the Boxster/Cayman iterations and many 911s, I have to agree that you could own and enjoy a 981 (2.7/S/GTS/GT4/Manual/PDK.....), and never envy any other Porsche owner.
This is exactly how I feel right now, and I'm planning on keeping my CGTS for the rest of my days. It's certainly "peak Porsche" for me and my usage.Well, I've recently moved from a Honda S2000 to a 987S Boxster, two cars defined (to some extent, at least) by their engines. The Honda engine was fascinating and undoubtedly exciting as it approached 9,000 revs but ... it was still just a 4 cylinder. In contrast, every time I drive the Boxster and extend the engine just slightly I think "wow!". For me, the noise, torque and smoothness of six cylinders are a major part of the appeal of the car (but by no means the only part).
Mind you, the Honda was totally reliable; time will tell with the Porsche!
Mind you, the Honda was totally reliable; time will tell with the Porsche!
Twinfan said:
I agree completely. I've just had my CGTS set up to the limit of adjustment all round and it handles superbly, much more confidence inspiring than it was before with more stability and reduced understeer. I never thought such a simple (and cheap!) thing could make such a difference. If you're driving around in a non-geo'd Cayster or 911 get it done now!
What do you mean by "the limit of adjustment" and what type of establishment would do this geometry work (properly)?Thanks.
I have two very close female colleagues. One has a 986 S and other one has 987.2 S. They both cant even check oil levels but both are very proud Flat 6 S owners, wouldn't consider 718 for now.
Super-contrast, my dad would consider buying 718 S just because on paper it is much better with less cylinders. Even though he had 997 and 987 before, being cold engineer logic I guess lol.
I love 4 cylinders turbo engines, got my VW nearly two years as reliable daily but can't see the enjoyment of it on a mid-engine layout.
Its like having decaf-cappuccino & Gluten-Free Blueberry Muffin as sunday breakfast. Super healthy but whats the point really?
Super-contrast, my dad would consider buying 718 S just because on paper it is much better with less cylinders. Even though he had 997 and 987 before, being cold engineer logic I guess lol.
I love 4 cylinders turbo engines, got my VW nearly two years as reliable daily but can't see the enjoyment of it on a mid-engine layout.
Its like having decaf-cappuccino & Gluten-Free Blueberry Muffin as sunday breakfast. Super healthy but whats the point really?
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