GT4 to 991.1GT3-RS...??
Discussion
As someone who drives 50:50 road and track, I’ve been considering moving the GT4 on for a slightly more “track-orientated” car... But it still needs to be useable as a daily.... I didn’t get a Gen 2 GT3 allocation, so that’s out of the window (and I’m not willing to pay £50k overs..!!), and have concerns over engine reliability of the 991.1 GT3, especially with most now over half-way through their 10 year “engine warranty”..... So, I’m considering a 991.1 GT3-RS... Whilst still having to pay overs, I’ve managed to get a couple of dealers to consider offers of circa £20k over list price, which doesn’t seem too bad...
So really I’m interested in the views of those who either own both, or who have spent significant periods of time in both.... On both road and track...
1) Would you consider it a wise move for a track day enthusiast, or should I just funnel the cash into a good tune/suspension mods on the GT4...??
2) Is it “useable” as a daily (with front axle lift, obviously...
)
3) As a manual transmission lover— and the RS being only available in PDK— will sticking the PDK shift into “manual mode” give me 90% of the feedback of a MT car....?? Or does that interaction disappear completely...?
Cheers all....
So really I’m interested in the views of those who either own both, or who have spent significant periods of time in both.... On both road and track...
1) Would you consider it a wise move for a track day enthusiast, or should I just funnel the cash into a good tune/suspension mods on the GT4...??
2) Is it “useable” as a daily (with front axle lift, obviously...
)3) As a manual transmission lover— and the RS being only available in PDK— will sticking the PDK shift into “manual mode” give me 90% of the feedback of a MT car....?? Or does that interaction disappear completely...?
Cheers all....
Swimfinz said:
It would indeed be the perfect choice.... But not at £50k overs....
They're dropped in price now... I've seen a few manuals going for £170-175k... so "only" £30k over (after options) and similar to the .1 RSFor track work though... I really think PDK is best... even pro-drivers can't get the most out of the manual with the latest engines.
crinkleshoes said:
For track work though... I really think PDK is best... even pro-drivers can't get the most out of the manual with the latest engines.
'Best' because you are racing at trackdays and need every tenth of a second advantage.....? 99% of track day drivers aren't getting anywhere close to the limits of the car nevermind the transmission. Whether or not a pro driver can or cannot get the most out of a manual (and why not?) is completely irrelevant to the amateur trackday driver. As a track car you will find the RS a big leap forward over the GT4. For the road, long gone are the days where an RS is compromised. On saying that the GT4 is a very good road car, the RS is a lot more frenetic on the road but only if you want it to be. I wouldn’t worry about the PDK box. It is very well engineered and suits the car well.
Steve Rance said:
As a track car you will find the RS a big leap forward over the GT4. For the road, long gone are the days where an RS is compromised. On saying that the GT4 is a very good road car, the RS is a lot more frenetic on the road but only if you want it to be. I wouldn’t worry about the PDK box. It is very well engineered and suits the car well.
I quite like “frenetic”.... Reminds me of the “battles” I had with my old Lotus Exige.... Bit of a challenge, but a lot of fun nonetheless.... If cars were easy to drive— as they increasingly appear to be these days— driving would become much less of an “art”, and much more of a mundanity....!! I want a car that challenges me, on road and track, but I’m also aware that I’m no “pro racing driver”, and that an RS may well be beyond my capabilities but, as most men do, I want to push the boundaries a bit.... After all— how many 3RS owners REALLY push this kind of car to its limits...?? I guess I sort of want the rawness of a Lotus, without the s
te build quality and Toyota motor.....!! The 3RS I drove, with all its rattles, squeaks and venomous acceleration, made me feel this may well be that “crossover” car....Swimfinz said:
As someone who drives 50:50 road and track, I’ve been considering moving the GT4 on for a slightly more “track-orientated” car... But it still needs to be useable as a daily.... I didn’t get a Gen 2 GT3 allocation, so that’s out of the window (and I’m not willing to pay £50k overs..!!), and have concerns over engine reliability of the 991.1 GT3, especially with most now over half-way through their 10 year “engine warranty”..... So, I’m considering a 991.1 GT3-RS... Whilst still having to pay overs, I’ve managed to get a couple of dealers to consider offers of circa £20k over list price, which doesn’t seem too bad...
So really I’m interested in the views of those who either own both, or who have spent significant periods of time in both.... On both road and track...
1) Would you consider it a wise move for a track day enthusiast, or should I just funnel the cash into a good tune/suspension mods on the GT4...??
2) Is it “useable” as a daily (with front axle lift, obviously... )
3) As a manual transmission lover— and the RS being only available in PDK— will sticking the PDK shift into “manual mode” give me 90% of the feedback of a MT car....?? Or does that interaction disappear completely...?
Cheers all....
I am also interested in looking for a good RS, what kind of year and mileage and best price are we looking atSo really I’m interested in the views of those who either own both, or who have spent significant periods of time in both.... On both road and track...
1) Would you consider it a wise move for a track day enthusiast, or should I just funnel the cash into a good tune/suspension mods on the GT4...??
2) Is it “useable” as a daily (with front axle lift, obviously...
)3) As a manual transmission lover— and the RS being only available in PDK— will sticking the PDK shift into “manual mode” give me 90% of the feedback of a MT car....?? Or does that interaction disappear completely...?
Cheers all....
Porsche911R said:
just get a 991.2 Manual GT3
seems the perfect choice for what you are after.
I think you need to forget about the overs thing and look at what is the best £180k GT car for you.seems the perfect choice for what you are after.
With sales of the .2 GT3 only around 50/50 manual PDK with a few Tourings in there then a manual CS car will IMHO hold better value than the equivalent price .1 RS as like you say about the .1 GT3’s that they are already nearly 5 years old.
It sounds like you are very attached to the manual box as in the GT4 and almost making a compromise to jump into a PDK(S) in the RS.
Or put 10k into the GT4 and get it to 430bhp which would make it more fun but wouldn’t get back all of the money you put into it.
What about booking a day at the Porsche experience as you will be able to drive a manual GT3 and a PDK RS on a track so should help you make a decision?
Swimfinz said:
I quite like “frenetic”.... Reminds me of the “battles” I had with my old Lotus Exige.... Bit of a challenge, but a lot of fun nonetheless.... If cars were easy to drive— as they increasingly appear to be these days— driving would become much less of an “art”, and much more of a mundanity....!! I want a car that challenges me, on road and track, but I’m also aware that I’m no “pro racing driver”, and that an RS may well be beyond my capabilities but, as most men do, I want to push the boundaries a bit.... After all— how many 3RS owners REALLY push this kind of car to its limits...?? I guess I sort of want the rawness of a Lotus, without the ste build quality and Toyota motor.....!! The 3RS I drove, with all its rattles, squeaks and venomous acceleration, made me feel this may well be that “crossover” car....
This is at least your second thread on this in the last few weeks... I think you've got to scratch the itch.. its not going to go away. Reminds me of the “battles” I had with my old Lotus Exige.... Bit of a challenge, but a lot of fun nonetheless.... If cars were easy to drive— as they increasingly appear to be these days— driving would become much less of an “art”, and much more of a mundanity....!! I want a car that challenges me, on road and track, but I’m also aware that I’m no “pro racing driver”, and that an RS may well be beyond my capabilities but, as most men do, I want to push the boundaries a bit.... After all— how many 3RS owners REALLY push this kind of car to its limits...?? I guess I sort of want the rawness of a Lotus, without the ste build quality and Toyota motor.....!! The 3RS I drove, with all its rattles, squeaks and venomous acceleration, made me feel this may well be that “crossover” car....Take the plunge.. Get the RS... if you don't like it you can always back into a GT4. You're in privileged position if you can afford it so just do it, and be happy.
Edited by TDT on Friday 6th April 22:01
TomEdward said:
Why not wait for the new GT4? Surely that will tick all the boxes you need and you'd save a fortune as well.
You're right but...1 - Allocation lottery/wheel of fortune/merry-go-round - so will he get one?
2 - Blasted residual values - Fear of the current GT4 value becoming volatile based upon the PU in the new car - so the OP might be thinking of mitigating risk now and getting a current offer vs potentially missing the boat and getting underbid later on.
Plus i'd imagine the RS will always be worth more than any GT4 including the 718 GT4 when it arrives - so he can always trade the RS for a new GT4 if he wants to later - even if the GT4 is overs - its not going to be £150K
Edited by TDT on Friday 6th April 22:03
TDT said:
TomEdward said:
Why not wait for the new GT4? Surely that will tick all the boxes you need and you'd save a fortune as well.
You're right but...1 - Allocation lottery/wheel of fortune/merry-go-round - so will he get one?
2 - Blasted residual values - Fear of the current GT4 value becoming volatile based upon the PU in the new car - so the OP might be thinking of mitigating risk now and getting a current offer vs potentially missing the boat and getting underbid later on.
Plus i'd imagine the RS will always be worth more than any GT4 including the 718 GT4 when it arrives - so he can always trade the RS for a new GT4 if he wants to later - even if the GT4 is overs - its not going to be £150K
Edited by TDT on Friday 6th April 22:03
Biggest issue for me is: for £180k, I sort of feel that the car has to be “perfect” (for me anyhow), but nothing— apart from a currently hugely overpriced manual GT3– seems to tick all the boxes..... Maybe, as a previous poster has already mentioned, I should try to put the “overs” to the back of my mind, and simply get the best car “for me” with that £180k.....?!? Painful though it may be....
Edited by Swimfinz on Friday 6th April 22:26
Phooey said:
I've not seen any or heard of any for 'only' £20k over yet so if that's the case - snap their bloody hands off!
I think he means for a RS which can be £160k list sell for £180kthing is the 991.2 GT3 is a better car and manual, and I don't care how fast PDK is manual is just more involving.
I thought a RS 4.0 997 was my dream car but the 991.2 GT3 is very special and more usable, it's like owning 2 cars where if you owned a 997 RS you would want a 991.2 GTS to go with it and then the GT3 would sit in the garage !
with Ferrari, Audi, Mercs and Lambos super cars all £150k upto £260k all are automatics, a Manual GT3 with a NA engine is now on it's own.
IF you want an Auto the RWS R8 looks a blast for the money.
the other 991.1 RS issue is the new 991.2 RS will be much better !!! that would grate a little spending overs for a poorer car than the new one at list.
I just don't find the 991.1 RS good value and as it's all about tech with it, you really want the 991.2 RS with better tech.
I would say the new RS will break a 7 minute ring time .
I choose the 991.2 GT3 in manual to HAVE the manual and real diff, I have been in PDK cars and they are a doddle to pilot, a manual needs real skill to lap at the same pace as the PDK's and I mean real skill, a learning one which you can work on for ever, with PDK you just steer it !!! and as I have said that's great to win at track days and there is fun in that, but for me very dull unless you have a 911R in the garage for the week ends.
I dismissed the 991.1 GT3 because it boards me (just personal choice), I have waited 7 years for Porsche to make the manual GT3 and for £180k one would be mad to choose the 991.1 RS over it imho if yu want to drive a manual car . The GT4 was a great car at a great price, but the manual GT3 is imo a masterpiece of a car and engine, the engine alone is worth the asking over a GT4. I swear it has more than 500BHP also.
Porsche911R said:
I choose the 991.2 GT3 in manual to HAVE the manual and real diff, I have been in PDK cars and they are a doddle to pilot, a manual needs real skill to lap at the same pace as the PDK's and I mean real skill, a learning one which you can work on for ever, with PDK you just steer it !!! and as I have said that's great to win at track days and there is fun in that, but for me very dull unless you have a 911R in the garage for the week.
^^^^ This is why I feel a tad stuck “between a rock and a hard place”....!! I essentially want the blistering track performance of the 3RS, but with a manual shift.... So, yes, the manual 991.2 would be THE car for me.... However, even accepting the crazy-ass overs, finding a CS spec manual car even around the £180k mark is proving difficult....!! If anyone is thinking of selling up anytime soon, please let me know....!!
Porsche911R said:
I choose the 991.2 GT3 in manual to HAVE the manual and real diff, I have been in PDK cars and they are a doddle to pilot, a manual needs real skill to lap at the same pace as the PDK's and I mean real skill, a learning one which you can work on for ever, with PDK you just steer it !!!
A dual clutch gearbox doesn't mean one magically becomes a good driver. You claim all one needs to do with one is 'just steer it' and 'they are a doddle to pilot'. I assume you mean if you are driving a .1rs you can drive a sub 2:40 lap at Spa or approx 2:20 at Silverstone? Because unless you can do that easily I'd suggest you think twice before claiming a dual clutch car is a doddle.There's no doubt that a manual is (much) more difficult to drive at the same pace, particularly for a non pro driver and without using autoblip. However most trackday drivers are literally seconds off what the cars are capable of. The limit of performance simply moves and the challenge of doing the best you can remains the same.
Agree , I am not a good driver but have won a bit over the years . Where manual is difficult is in race situations ( especially at night ) where compromise of line and braking points may be critical requiring a forced shift quickly . The new cars have so many electronics anyway , auto blip , RWS etc . As I have said before my RS the first GT3 RS has nothing not even ABS .... that is fun to try and drive ... and yes as a enthusiastic amateur ...... mistakes are made , especially at night in competition
The 991 and to a lesser extent the GT4 are heavily assisted cars. The thing that Porsche do extremely well is creating so much apparent feel and engagement from something so heavily assisted. The result is incredible speed and a driver who still feels part of the extraction of the performance.
I think in that context the manual or PDK element is largely irrelevant. From a personal point of view, driving a manual version quickly wouldn’t demand much if any more skill than driving a PDK version quickly. The addition of rev matching bridges that gap. Where the real skill in driving these cars lies is dialling yourself into the assisted element of the chassis to such an extent that you can almost get in front of the chassis and make the assistance work for you. To become it’s master. Certainly from my perspective, that would be a challenge that I would absolutely relish, but I would need to concentrate 100% on thechassis only so I would need PDK not manual. That would be an unnecessary hindrance
I think in that context the manual or PDK element is largely irrelevant. From a personal point of view, driving a manual version quickly wouldn’t demand much if any more skill than driving a PDK version quickly. The addition of rev matching bridges that gap. Where the real skill in driving these cars lies is dialling yourself into the assisted element of the chassis to such an extent that you can almost get in front of the chassis and make the assistance work for you. To become it’s master. Certainly from my perspective, that would be a challenge that I would absolutely relish, but I would need to concentrate 100% on thechassis only so I would need PDK not manual. That would be an unnecessary hindrance
Edited by Steve Rance on Saturday 7th April 15:29
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