Making an old Porsche feel like new

[LennyM1984]

This is mainly a theoretical question but being the owner of a 100k mile Cayman, I have some interest in the answer. So, what would need to be done to make an old car drive like it did when it first left the factory?

My assumption is that new suspension (struts, springs, top mounts etc) and new bushes throughout (suspension arms, ARBs, sub-frames etc) would get you 90% of the way there but what else would people have on their list? New clutch? brake rebuild? Shift cables?

The reality is that most cars approaching this age/mileage will (should) have had many of these parts replaced already but it is still probably unusual to have *all* worn parts replaced.

So assuming a blank cheque book, what would you replace and in what order?

[ATM]

Engine and Gearbox mounts.

Master cylinder, Slave Cylinder and clutch pipe. My Clutch pedal sometimes feels like it doesnt want to return so not sure if the pedal itself has some bushings which could be swapped out. Also my accelerator pedal feels like it has some play in it too.

If the brakes feel solid then I wouldn't rush into a brake caliper rebuild. You could do new flexis. My 996 has had all new hard lines but you want 'feel' that.

Gear lever mechanism can start to get sloppy so you could look at bushings or a whole new lever mechanism if its bad.

Not sure about the steering rack itself. They can wear out and need changing but not sure if age would maybe develop any slop or play in the rack itself.

Then you're into the seat and steering wheel. You dont want saggy seat cushions or worn leather on the wheel. But you're down to the last 1 or 2% now.

[abzmike]

From what I’ve read here, Porches seem to need expensive and extensive maintenance and replacement parts way before they get to 100k. Seems to belie the premium reputation and price.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

abzmike said:

From what I’ve read here, Porches seem to need expensive and extensive maintenance and replacement parts way before they get to 100k. Seems to belie the premium reputation and price.

I think it's more about the type of owner who a/ owns an old Porsche and b/ posts about in on the internet.

For most, it's a life long ambition and they want to baby it and make it "as good as new", even if that means throwing away money on things they will never notice. A bit like those blokes who swear by £100 HDMI cables.

FWIW, at 10 years old my 993s suspension was completely fine, I updated it with new coilovers for track but the rest of it (top mounts, engine mounts etc) was fine.

The biggest difference made was the suspension alignment by someone who knew what they were doing

[LennyM1984]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think that many suspension arms and gear cables will have failed and been replaced before 100k but I agree that shocks etc are probably less likely to have been done.

[ATM]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

abzmike said:

From what I’ve read here, Porches seem to need expensive and extensive maintenance and replacement parts way before they get to 100k. Seems to belie the premium reputation and price.

I think it's more about the type of owner who a/ owns an old Porsche and b/ posts about in on the internet.

And that's why you should only take notice of people who actually have an older Porsche rather than the people who have just read stuff and think they know something. There are probably more people on here talking about these cars than people who actually own one.

[A1VDY]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

^
True.
Like many manufacturers, suspension, brakes, clutches, belts ect ect are made by outside suppliers.
If doing your own repairs it's worth seeking out parts from motor factors and opting for the premium makes like Mahle, bosch, Brembo, LUK, Mann ect.
In most cases these will be the exact same parts as in a Porsche marked box and will obviously be much cheaper.
.

[edc]

In a blind rest you could make a leggy car feel like new quite easily and without touching any of the stuff that could fail with age. You don't feel things like a water pump or a window regulator.

[LennyM1984]

edc said:

In a blind rest you could make a leggy car feel like new quite easily and without touching any of the stuff that could fail with age. You don't feel things like a water pump or a window regulator.

That's my question. What would you need to change to make the car *feel* like new? As you say, waterpumps etc don't add anything to the feel

[anonymous-user]

Just refreshed the suspension at CofG on my wife's 12 year old 997 C4s - renewed everything from top mounts and dampers, to bushes and diagonal arms - and it felt better, but not new. Then I refurbished the alloys, had two slightly bent rims straightened and fitted new tyres that were rim matched and balanced on a Hunter Road Force machine. Then the car felt new (that silky smooth new car ride).

Bottom line? Bangs for buck (ride wise anyway) it's hard to beat new tyres and a full Road Force set up. That is how they come from the factory.

[edc]

LennyM1984 said:

edc said:

In a blind rest you could make a leggy car feel like new quite easily and without touching any of the stuff that could fail with age. You don't feel things like a water pump or a window regulator.

That's my question. What would you need to change to make the car *feel* like new? As you say, waterpumps etc don't add anything to the feel

Then fresh brakes and suspension, a well cleaned and good condition steering wheel, gear knob and handbrake cover, new engine mount possibly gearbox mounts, possibly new gear cables pack, correctly adjusted and functioning handbrake mechanism, new or recently replaced clutch, good condition seats.

There's a lot more you can do to make the car more reliable and as new.

[996Targa]

I had a 2003 996. "Things" were changed as and when necessary and there were a lot of "things". I also used to have the "while you're there" parts replaced as well.

At 15 years and 86,000 miles the car failed its MOT due to a corroded front spring plate. That entailed the replacement of pretty much the whole of the front suspension at a cost of £1,500. When you see all the old bits on the garage floor you won't want them to go back on. The labour is the same to put new parts on as old and reduce the risk (certainty?) of future failure with yet more labour cost. The car felt like new afterward and a lot of rattles and sneaks were left on the garage floor.

I always find that a new windscreen makes a big difference. You don't realise how marked an old screen is, especially at 100,000 miles.

[Leftfootwonder]

At 85k my '06 CS has required new springs, pasm dampers and top mounts at the front. Thankfully nothing else major although I will replace the rears in a couple of months along with the bushings just to even things out. Noticed the front turn in was MASSIVELY improved with the new bits fitted and drives very nicely.

By way of comparison however, my 220k mile Honda Accord is still on original suspension (although bushings done) and hasn't had any problems at all (touching wood). But I wonder if this is because the CS is weekend toy and sits there for a lot of the time whereas I drive the wheels of the Accord on a daily basis.....

Edited by Leftfootwonder on Sunday 5th January 15:44

[ATM]

Completely different cars built for a completely different purpose. I like watching videos on YouTube where they start up old tractors that have not moved for 20 years. They are also completely different. You cant compare suspension bushes on a car designed to be a safe reliable car for transporting people around for many years to those on a sports car designed to give the driver good feedback and for the geometry to remain precise under high loads. They are just designed for a different purpose and therefore age differently too.

[Leftfootwonder]

ATM said:

Completely different cars built for a completely different purpose. I like watching videos on YouTube where they start up old tractors that have not moved for 20 years. They are also completely different. You cant compare suspension bushes on a car designed to be a safe reliable car for transporting people around for many years to those on a sports car designed to give the driver good feedback and for the geometry to remain precise under high loads. They are just designed for a different purpose and therefore age differently too.

I agree with you but my point was that people buying a Porsche might reasonably expect longevity and reliability as well especially given the respective purchase prices.

[SkinnyPete]

Leftfootwonder said:

I agree with you but my point was that people buying a Porsche might reasonably expect longevity and reliability as well especially given the respective purchase prices.

You would like to think so, but maybe that is a simplistic view. Porches (some) can ride very firmly, in which case I would expect the life of the suspension to be shorter than compared to a sensible family hatchback which can soak up bumps a lot more easily.

This has certainly been the case in my experience, my 987 had most of its major suspension components replaced at 25k under warranty, and it felt like a brand new car after. The owner after me replaced more of the same components before 60k.

My 981 has fared a lot better but then it's a much softer car so that is to be expected.

[ATM]

SkinnyPete said:

My 981 has fared a lot better but then it's a much softer car so that is to be expected.

My 981 failed on 2 ball joints both on passenger side. So I had to replace the lower arms or coffin arms I think some people call them - front and back. Car was 6 years old and around 40000 miles. The bushes looked fine.

Also worth noting that the rear arms on the 981 are exactly the same as the 9x6 and 9x7 arms. The front arms on the 981 are different. Well the arm itself is identical but the bush in the middle is different - it's a lot bigger and thicker and completely fills the hole it's in.

I've got a couple kicking around so can show a side by side comparison if anyone is interested.

[SkinnyPete]

ATM said:

My 981 failed on 2 ball joints both on passenger side. So I had to replace the lower arms or coffin arms I think some people call them - front and back. Car was 6 years old and around 40000 miles. The bushes looked fine.

Also worth noting that the rear arms on the 981 are exactly the same as the 9x6 and 9x7 arms. The front arms on the 981 are different. Well the arm itself is identical but the bush in the middle is different - it's a lot bigger and thicker and completely fills the hole it's in.

I've got a couple kicking around so can show a side by side comparison if anyone is interested.

Yeah stick a picture up if you get a minute.

The larger bush is probably one contributing factor to why the new cars don't feel as tight as the older ones.

[ATM]

SkinnyPete said:

ATM said:

My 981 failed on 2 ball joints both on passenger side. So I had to replace the lower arms or coffin arms I think some people call them - front and back. Car was 6 years old and around 40000 miles. The bushes looked fine.

Also worth noting that the rear arms on the 981 are exactly the same as the 9x6 and 9x7 arms. The front arms on the 981 are different. Well the arm itself is identical but the bush in the middle is different - it's a lot bigger and thicker and completely fills the hole it's in.

I've got a couple kicking around so can show a side by side comparison if anyone is interested.

Yeah stick a picture up if you get a minute.

The larger bush is probably one contributing factor to why the new cars don't feel as tight as the older ones.

I see it the other way round. The higher bush means there is less play or movement.

[ATM]

ATM said:

SkinnyPete said:

ATM said:

My 981 failed on 2 ball joints both on passenger side. So I had to replace the lower arms or coffin arms I think some people call them - front and back. Car was 6 years old and around 40000 miles. The bushes looked fine.

Also worth noting that the rear arms on the 981 are exactly the same as the 9x6 and 9x7 arms. The front arms on the 981 are different. Well the arm itself is identical but the bush in the middle is different - it's a lot bigger and thicker and completely fills the hole it's in.

I've got a couple kicking around so can show a side by side comparison if anyone is interested.

Yeah stick a picture up if you get a minute.

The larger bush is probably one contributing factor to why the new cars don't feel as tight as the older ones.

I see it the other way round. The higher bush means there is less play or movement.

Not sure why I wrote higher. I think I meant harder. So here are some pics of the 981 arm. Hopefully you can see the bush is much thicker. It sticks out more. Also you can see no daylight or gaps between the bush and the arm. On the earlier arms the bush is basically flush with the arm so much thinner and you have got some gaps or holes so I assume that means softer or it allows more movement.