993 C4 Silver,Coupe 1997 (R), Man.,A/C, 18inch W, Black Int
Discussion
I have the opportunity to purchase the above with a mere 40K miles and full history for every year, regardless of the mileage. Lots of paper work from OTT owner with emails re car etc. It's immaculate and verified by one of the most well known and respected specialists.
How much would you say it's worth?
How much would you say it's worth?
Must be one of the last of the 'narrow bodied' 993s.
c.£60k, if it's as good as you suggest.
I had two 993 C2s, both bought new, but I subsequently drove a couple of late Varioram C4s and I was surprised how nice they were.
40k mls makes it a usable/collectable. You could put a few thousand miles on it each year and it will remain 'low mileage' for a long time.
c.£60k, if it's as good as you suggest.
I had two 993 C2s, both bought new, but I subsequently drove a couple of late Varioram C4s and I was surprised how nice they were.
40k mls makes it a usable/collectable. You could put a few thousand miles on it each year and it will remain 'low mileage' for a long time.
I don't understand - has the owner asked you to make an offer?
Apart from that, make sure you buy on current condition, not paperwork.
At that mileage I would imagine that it has lived it's life in a garage, and the screen apertures are both OK, and the chassis rails are perfect, but have both these areas been 'verified' by the indie?
Caliper-plate lift? Suspension? Clutch? With that low a mileage, how often has the slave-cylinder been flushed? Gearbox oil been changed yet? When were the plugs last done?
Ancient N-rated Pirelli P-zeros I would guess? (tyres are just consumables, but tell you a great deal about the owner)
ETA - what oil has it sat in for the past 19 years? 0W40 changed by the OPC, or 10W40 looked-after by an indie?
Apart from that, make sure you buy on current condition, not paperwork.
At that mileage I would imagine that it has lived it's life in a garage, and the screen apertures are both OK, and the chassis rails are perfect, but have both these areas been 'verified' by the indie?
Caliper-plate lift? Suspension? Clutch? With that low a mileage, how often has the slave-cylinder been flushed? Gearbox oil been changed yet? When were the plugs last done?
Ancient N-rated Pirelli P-zeros I would guess? (tyres are just consumables, but tell you a great deal about the owner)
ETA - what oil has it sat in for the past 19 years? 0W40 changed by the OPC, or 10W40 looked-after by an indie?
Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 5th January 22:49
OC as always straight in there with the devil in the detail 
.
Just to pull you up on one point. OPC has been filling my baby up with 10 - 40 for the last ten years, (well until that new fangled Classic Porsche oil came along) and I never even asked them to do it........ So at least some OPCs try and keep up
OP. I'd hazard a guess private sale at £54K if with sports seats, £52k without.
.Just to pull you up on one point. OPC has been filling my baby up with 10 - 40 for the last ten years, (well until that new fangled Classic Porsche oil came along) and I never even asked them to do it........ So at least some OPCs try and keep up
OP. I'd hazard a guess private sale at £54K if with sports seats, £52k without.
Edited by Wozy68 on Tuesday 5th January 23:35
Yes, the 'devil is in the detail'.
It could have been perfectly maintained and good to go. Or, you could put it through an inspection and find a host of issues that require attention.
However, I follow the market out of interest and, if there are no horrors, then it would be a very sought after 993. These are the ones that the specialists seem to get, ask premium prices for, but sell pretty quickly.
I'd go along with the above values - £50k for a private sale if it needs a bit of expenditure, but up to £60k if it's perfect. Dealer prices would probably exceed that. You only have to look at the prices for the best, late, low mileage 3.2s and 964s.
It could have been perfectly maintained and good to go. Or, you could put it through an inspection and find a host of issues that require attention.
However, I follow the market out of interest and, if there are no horrors, then it would be a very sought after 993. These are the ones that the specialists seem to get, ask premium prices for, but sell pretty quickly.
I'd go along with the above values - £50k for a private sale if it needs a bit of expenditure, but up to £60k if it's perfect. Dealer prices would probably exceed that. You only have to look at the prices for the best, late, low mileage 3.2s and 964s.
Off topic
Now (regardless of mileage or useage) Porsche HQ suddenly tell us the older cars need their nicely-packaged 20W50 (or whatever it is)?
So were they wrong then or are they wrong now?
Wozy68 said:
Just to pull you up on one point. OPC has been filling my baby up with 10 - 40 for the last ten years, (well until that new fangled Classic Porsche oil came along) and I never even asked them to do it........ So at least some OPCs try and keep up
It's a lottery isn't it? Most OPCs will have done as Porsche HQ tells them and just chuck in the 0W40 that was factory-fill in the later cars to keep OPC costs down, but a select few will use common sense on the earlier cars and put in the correct spec oil. Now (regardless of mileage or useage) Porsche HQ suddenly tell us the older cars need their nicely-packaged 20W50 (or whatever it is)?
So were they wrong then or are they wrong now?
I'll reiterate some of the comments on here, you must go in with your eyes wide open......
About five years ago I looked at one identical to mine at a dealer, except it had half the mileage. It was as described (kind of), had a full history, was standard etc, but had only ever been serviced, little or no other maintenance had been done, there was a cloth shoved up against the AC rad, one bald rear tyre, a mark on the roof where a spanner etc had been dropped on it and a massive oil leak - mine was clearly the better car, and this was at a very well known specialist.
The point is just because it's got low mileage doesn't mean its a good one, if you find yourself on 911uk and follow the threads there suspension/apertures/myriad refurbs/AC/chassis rails could soon add up to potentially five figures.
About five years ago I looked at one identical to mine at a dealer, except it had half the mileage. It was as described (kind of), had a full history, was standard etc, but had only ever been serviced, little or no other maintenance had been done, there was a cloth shoved up against the AC rad, one bald rear tyre, a mark on the roof where a spanner etc had been dropped on it and a massive oil leak - mine was clearly the better car, and this was at a very well known specialist.
The point is just because it's got low mileage doesn't mean its a good one, if you find yourself on 911uk and follow the threads there suspension/apertures/myriad refurbs/AC/chassis rails could soon add up to potentially five figures.
acme said:
The point is just because it's got low mileage doesn't mean its a good one, if you find yourself on 911uk and follow the threads there suspension/apertures/myriad refurbs/AC/chassis rails could soon add up to potentially five figures.
I'd forgotten the biggie - A/C.With low useage you are looking at possible replacement of..erm... everything expensive
I do worry that buyers think that 'serviced every year and lots of paperwork' equals a good car.
Until you know the content of the work, it really doesn't mean anything.
If it's just an oil change every year, spark-plugs every few years hopefully, then you are looking at five figures to address the basic list, which on a low-miler 993 is:
Probable;
Suspension
Calipers
A/C
Radiators plus stupid ceramic ballast resistors
Clutch-slave
Maybe:
chassis-rails
screen apertures
A/C control unit.
Clutch
Brake discs/pads and cam-cover gaskets (more likely to go on a low-miler) should have been done...?
So show us the content of the 'servicing', and we'll tell you how much more money you are going to spend over the purchase price
There's a mud-trap formed between the chassis rail at the back (near where the 'bumper' attaches) and a wing support plate and (to a lesser extent) a heat-shield.
The car has most of the paint/protection applied after the wing support plate is attached, so underneath is quite bare.
Mud makes it's way in from above, thrown-in from the rear wheelarches, and cannot get out.
Here is what I found on my low-mileage garage queen - and what I did about it in detail
http://www.orangecurry.com/993/chassis-rails/
The car has most of the paint/protection applied after the wing support plate is attached, so underneath is quite bare.
Mud makes it's way in from above, thrown-in from the rear wheelarches, and cannot get out.
Here is what I found on my low-mileage garage queen - and what I did about it in detail
http://www.orangecurry.com/993/chassis-rails/
That is very useful thanks OC.
Sorry for going off post guys..
BTW I would estimate the car value at £55k subject to its condition, I've also got a 1997 C4 with 65k on the clock, it's all about condition and spec and not age or mileage, 993's were only built for around 5 years and the newest will be almost 18 years old now, a lot can deteriorate in that time, so it's whether that has been addressed.
Don't buy something you are afraid to use or you'll miss out on the best bit!!
Sorry for going off post guys..
BTW I would estimate the car value at £55k subject to its condition, I've also got a 1997 C4 with 65k on the clock, it's all about condition and spec and not age or mileage, 993's were only built for around 5 years and the newest will be almost 18 years old now, a lot can deteriorate in that time, so it's whether that has been addressed.
Don't buy something you are afraid to use or you'll miss out on the best bit!!
Edited by Chris-mac on Thursday 7th January 08:57
Chris-mac said:
What are the issues with the chassis rails?
Personally I think it's been a bit blown out of proportion. Yes there are some shockers out there, but looking at OCs above pic on his twenty year old car you can see that often there is nothing there but a bit of surface rust. It's now slowly and surely becoming one of the defacto checks required when purchasing a 993, which I think is silly until more numbers are known. The condition can only properly be inspected if you take halve the back of the car apart. Worse case senario it's nowhere near as bad a repair compared to earlier 911s kidney bowls etc etc.
It would not stop me buying a well sorted 993 even if the chassis legs were found to require repair ....... The cost of which normally isn't excessive if requiring work, and that's a big if.
Edited by Wozy68 on Thursday 7th January 08:59
Wozy68 said:
Personally I think it's been a bit blown out of proportion.
Agreed 100% - some indies have even tried to jump on the bandwagon as the go-to solution, and costs can be high; but on the percentage of cars that I've seen, it's something that does need to be addressed.However - unlike kidney bowls on the earlier cars, once the area is protected properly, it won't rust again.
But it is a very simple job - dismantling this area of a 993 is 'easy' and applying protective coats is 'easy' and it really shouldn't cost very much even if you need some welding doing.
My point on this thread is to raise awareness that even if the car was serviced every month and lived in a garage all of it's life, this area needs inspection, and an indie can't 'verify' the condition unless they have done so.
To be honest, if the car really is a peach and comes up trumps when inspected, then that may not be far off the mark.
A private seller may have to concede a bit, but 'prestige' dealers would probably be asking a lot more.
Excellent, low mileage aircooled 911s are sought after and generally sell quite quickly. The likely market (astute, moneyed, collectors) would rather pay £60k for a car that ticks all the boxes, than £45k for a car that needs £10k of expenditure and fiddling about.
A private seller may have to concede a bit, but 'prestige' dealers would probably be asking a lot more.
Excellent, low mileage aircooled 911s are sought after and generally sell quite quickly. The likely market (astute, moneyed, collectors) would rather pay £60k for a car that ticks all the boxes, than £45k for a car that needs £10k of expenditure and fiddling about.
I bought a very low mileage (30k) 993 cabrio and sent it to Paragon for some planned maintenance repairs. The bill was in excess of 10k and counting. These are nice cars but they are expensive to maintain. Not sure i would pay in excess of 65k for one with the knowledge i have today. Have it inspected and good luck.
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