Discussion
Morning all
Can anyone give me some advice please on the main differences between a late model 964 and a 993. I am leaning towards selling my 997.1 GT3 and buying/building my own air cooled car and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I see lots of 964’s are advertised as having recent engine rebuilds, is this because the 964 engine was originally designed without a gasket and top-end rebuilds are required? Will a 993 engine need a rebuild at around 100k to?
Also, the 964 asking prices are considerably higher than a similar mileage 993, why is this? What am I missing that everyone else seems to know? Is the 964 THAT much ‘better’ than the 993?
Sorry for the inevitable newbie questions, I have been a kettle man for a while and I am just starting looking at air cooled cars again.
Can anyone give me some advice please on the main differences between a late model 964 and a 993. I am leaning towards selling my 997.1 GT3 and buying/building my own air cooled car and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I see lots of 964’s are advertised as having recent engine rebuilds, is this because the 964 engine was originally designed without a gasket and top-end rebuilds are required? Will a 993 engine need a rebuild at around 100k to?
Also, the 964 asking prices are considerably higher than a similar mileage 993, why is this? What am I missing that everyone else seems to know? Is the 964 THAT much ‘better’ than the 993?
Sorry for the inevitable newbie questions, I have been a kettle man for a while and I am just starting looking at air cooled cars again.
There are significant differences between the 964 and 993.
I've had both - two 964 C2s (both bought new), and three 993s (two C2s bought new, and a pre-owned C4 - which was actually the nicest).
In most respects the 993 is a superior car, although some people prefer the classic silhouette of the 964. Either will now be 20-25 years old so in need of anything between a 'running re-fresh' and a 'full restoration'. 964s seem popular for modifying. 993s seem to be kept original.
Both will seem dated and slower than a 997 GT3 (which I also had), but air-cooled are just so much fun and far more tactile at sensible speeds.
Some people 'get it' many don't. For sunny day fun, I actually prefer the G50 3.2 - but that's more to do with nostalgia.
I've had both - two 964 C2s (both bought new), and three 993s (two C2s bought new, and a pre-owned C4 - which was actually the nicest).
In most respects the 993 is a superior car, although some people prefer the classic silhouette of the 964. Either will now be 20-25 years old so in need of anything between a 'running re-fresh' and a 'full restoration'. 964s seem popular for modifying. 993s seem to be kept original.
Both will seem dated and slower than a 997 GT3 (which I also had), but air-cooled are just so much fun and far more tactile at sensible speeds.
Some people 'get it' many don't. For sunny day fun, I actually prefer the G50 3.2 - but that's more to do with nostalgia.
I've had both. Currently in a 993 carrera. Price difference largely due to the "Singer effect". Signer buying up all the 964s to mod into his cars. 993 used to be worth more then over a relatively short time the 964 came from behind and overtook it.
Main differences as far as I recall:
- 964 has the classic torpedo headlights, 993 doesn't. Just a matter of taste which you prefer.
- 964 has 5 gears, 993 has 6 gears. Barely much difference, especially if talking non-varioram earlier 993, which has shorter gearing (like the 964) than the later varioram 993
- suspension: 993 was the first 911 to benefit from multilink rear suspension. 964 has same suspension setup as previous 911s (torsion bar?). the difference on the road is the 964 has slightly more classic handling characteristics and the limit is a bit lower. 993 bit safer, bit less likely to bite. Still raw though as no traction control or other nannies. The back will still creep around without smooth inputs, especially in the wet.
- pedal box: HATED the earlier 964 pedal box which has no far-left foot rest. The footrest is between the brake and clutch and it's tiny. If you're above say a size 8 foot you prob can't get your foot in there. So you have to find some other place for it...you potentially end up in a compromised driving position and more risk of back pain etc. They changed the box 1991 to the one that the 993 has, with a proper left footrest.
- 964 need a valve adjustment every 3k miles I think. 993 doesn't (automated?)
- They sound different probably just because of the different exhaust setup. In my experience the 964 (with a G-pipe) is very loud and gruff, a bit rawer. The 993 sound is very soulful with more varience and character in the sound (IMO...others mau have expeirenced different). I prefer the 993 sound.
- 993 slightly better protected against mud + moisture leading to rust vs the 964. E.g. they changed the design of the kidney.
- On that note, generally it seems that 964s are more prone to rust. They may however just be because they're older.
- Both rust at the rear and front window scuttles. Not a particularly big job and v common.
- 964 the revs felt more linear to me across the range. 993 (non-varioram) has more of an "on-cam" feeling at 4k revs which I personally find more exciting.
Main differences as far as I recall:
- 964 has the classic torpedo headlights, 993 doesn't. Just a matter of taste which you prefer.
- 964 has 5 gears, 993 has 6 gears. Barely much difference, especially if talking non-varioram earlier 993, which has shorter gearing (like the 964) than the later varioram 993
- suspension: 993 was the first 911 to benefit from multilink rear suspension. 964 has same suspension setup as previous 911s (torsion bar?). the difference on the road is the 964 has slightly more classic handling characteristics and the limit is a bit lower. 993 bit safer, bit less likely to bite. Still raw though as no traction control or other nannies. The back will still creep around without smooth inputs, especially in the wet.
- pedal box: HATED the earlier 964 pedal box which has no far-left foot rest. The footrest is between the brake and clutch and it's tiny. If you're above say a size 8 foot you prob can't get your foot in there. So you have to find some other place for it...you potentially end up in a compromised driving position and more risk of back pain etc. They changed the box 1991 to the one that the 993 has, with a proper left footrest.
- 964 need a valve adjustment every 3k miles I think. 993 doesn't (automated?)
- They sound different probably just because of the different exhaust setup. In my experience the 964 (with a G-pipe) is very loud and gruff, a bit rawer. The 993 sound is very soulful with more varience and character in the sound (IMO...others mau have expeirenced different). I prefer the 993 sound.
- 993 slightly better protected against mud + moisture leading to rust vs the 964. E.g. they changed the design of the kidney.
- On that note, generally it seems that 964s are more prone to rust. They may however just be because they're older.
- Both rust at the rear and front window scuttles. Not a particularly big job and v common.
- 964 the revs felt more linear to me across the range. 993 (non-varioram) has more of an "on-cam" feeling at 4k revs which I personally find more exciting.
Chassis wise there is nothing in it to be honest. Both have coil overs front and rear, the 993 has more links in the rear but having driven both, there's nothing in it in terms of feel. Both will benefit from rose jointed rear spring plates which transforms the handling. Ignore the front bump steer fables of the 964, the problem with the handling comes from the weissach effect from the rear that brings a vaigueness under cornering as loads increase. This is cured by the modified spring plates.
I own heavily modified 993 and 964's. Both very nice cars to drive but on balance I prefer the 964 although when tuned, they are both dynamically very similar with no one single handling characteristic that I would say fundamentally seperates them. Some will prefer the 993. On the lap, theres very little in it. I think that when you boil them down the 993 will be the better car techincally but ultimately for me the 993 lacks the character of the 964 because of it's sillouette which closely links it to the early cars. Some like that, some don't. It comes down too your styling preferences.
They won't cover the ground like a 997 GT3 and they wont be hugely different in terms of feel or feedback but they will imurse and involve you for more of the time on the road. Get a good one and you really can go wrong with either. In an ideal world, you'd have your 997 AND a 993/64 in your garage - I built my 964 a few years ago with the intention of creating my perfect 997 GT3 shortly after. Since I finished the 964 I havent really had the inclination to start the 997 because i'm always driving the 964 which probably tells you all that you need to know.
Go into it with your eyes open though. The build process can be eyewateringly expensive.
I own heavily modified 993 and 964's. Both very nice cars to drive but on balance I prefer the 964 although when tuned, they are both dynamically very similar with no one single handling characteristic that I would say fundamentally seperates them. Some will prefer the 993. On the lap, theres very little in it. I think that when you boil them down the 993 will be the better car techincally but ultimately for me the 993 lacks the character of the 964 because of it's sillouette which closely links it to the early cars. Some like that, some don't. It comes down too your styling preferences.
They won't cover the ground like a 997 GT3 and they wont be hugely different in terms of feel or feedback but they will imurse and involve you for more of the time on the road. Get a good one and you really can go wrong with either. In an ideal world, you'd have your 997 AND a 993/64 in your garage - I built my 964 a few years ago with the intention of creating my perfect 997 GT3 shortly after. Since I finished the 964 I havent really had the inclination to start the 997 because i'm always driving the 964 which probably tells you all that you need to know.
Go into it with your eyes open though. The build process can be eyewateringly expensive.
At last an interesting thread : - bookmarked.
Good luck - I can’t be much help I’m afraid ; only experience I have / had is a 3.2 Carrera (G50), a 964 , but a 3.6 Turbo and a 2.7RS (ish) loved all of them
Good luck on your search , take your time, always buy on condition and get a specialist to check them out for you.
Air cooled 911’s ........... brilliant things - enjoy
Good luck - I can’t be much help I’m afraid ; only experience I have / had is a 3.2 Carrera (G50), a 964 , but a 3.6 Turbo and a 2.7RS (ish) loved all of them
Good luck on your search , take your time, always buy on condition and get a specialist to check them out for you.
Air cooled 911’s ........... brilliant things - enjoy
Apart from the obvious difference in looks the two cars are very similar. The multi link rear suspension on the 993 being the main change. Both cars suffer oil leaks which is why many choose to rebuild but both models suffer exhaust valve guide wear. The 993 disguises the noise better with having hydraulic tappets. Valve adjustments on the 964 are every 15-20k miles.
Both great cars but as already said, get a PPI and look for obvious bills. Rust is also an issue on both models if left unchecked. Huge detail on this link
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-tec...
Both great cars but as already said, get a PPI and look for obvious bills. Rust is also an issue on both models if left unchecked. Huge detail on this link
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-tec...
Excellent information and advice guys, thank you for your posts.
I am currently reading up all I can about the 993/964 and right now I am leaning towards the 993 even though I prefer the looks of the 964.
I will be buying from a trader but I will still be getting an independent inspection done for my own peace of mind. Philip Raby comes recommended, are there any others with good reputations?
As a side note, I would welcome any PM's on dealership's/traders to avoid.
Thanks again all
I am currently reading up all I can about the 993/964 and right now I am leaning towards the 993 even though I prefer the looks of the 964.
I will be buying from a trader but I will still be getting an independent inspection done for my own peace of mind. Philip Raby comes recommended, are there any others with good reputations?
As a side note, I would welcome any PM's on dealership's/traders to avoid.
Thanks again all
Good topic.
I ended up at some point owning and driving both models at the same time. When I had to sell one it I kept the 993 as I thought it was a better rounded car overall. However, I enjoyed the drive in both and would happily own either from a driving experience if I couldn't have the other. Suspension was set up as standard for driving on the road and liked them that way (I have something else for circuits). I would say the main difference on the engine and gearbox is you can drive a varioram 993 in lazy mode and still make progress or wind it up into a more frenetic drive by going up the rev range. On a non varioram 993 or a 964 you tend to have only the latter available to make brisk progress as the transition at 4K revs is more pronounced. My favourite regular drive was a very early morning spirited two hours down A and B roads where I could happily keep both cars over 4K revs for 2 hours and know they were unbreakable. You can feel the rear of a 964 moving around a lot more though so you feel rather more on your tippy toes when driving in a spirited manner. For the same speed, the 993 feels like it has a higher safety margin before it all goes wrong
964 engines are fine if they have had the cylinder heads modified for the seals (which they pretty much all have by now). Both can drip some oil. The later 964 years have the better brakes and the 993 brakes are just good out the box. 964 engines should have their tappets adjusted every 12K so slightly dearer to service as it takes longer. They have to get it hot, drain the oil, let it all cool down then adjust the tappets. It is quite common for owners to leave the tappets to the 24K service but I could always tell the difference when mine where done late. 993 does not need adjustment as they are hydraulic. Engine life on both tends to depend more on how previous owners have treated the car rather than whether 964 or 993. My experience was long term maintenance costs were similar with stuff like suspension rubbers, steering rack leaks, etc. applying equally to both.
Both great cars, very similar in many ways with many shared mechanical components. They just look very different.
I ended up at some point owning and driving both models at the same time. When I had to sell one it I kept the 993 as I thought it was a better rounded car overall. However, I enjoyed the drive in both and would happily own either from a driving experience if I couldn't have the other. Suspension was set up as standard for driving on the road and liked them that way (I have something else for circuits). I would say the main difference on the engine and gearbox is you can drive a varioram 993 in lazy mode and still make progress or wind it up into a more frenetic drive by going up the rev range. On a non varioram 993 or a 964 you tend to have only the latter available to make brisk progress as the transition at 4K revs is more pronounced. My favourite regular drive was a very early morning spirited two hours down A and B roads where I could happily keep both cars over 4K revs for 2 hours and know they were unbreakable. You can feel the rear of a 964 moving around a lot more though so you feel rather more on your tippy toes when driving in a spirited manner. For the same speed, the 993 feels like it has a higher safety margin before it all goes wrong
964 engines are fine if they have had the cylinder heads modified for the seals (which they pretty much all have by now). Both can drip some oil. The later 964 years have the better brakes and the 993 brakes are just good out the box. 964 engines should have their tappets adjusted every 12K so slightly dearer to service as it takes longer. They have to get it hot, drain the oil, let it all cool down then adjust the tappets. It is quite common for owners to leave the tappets to the 24K service but I could always tell the difference when mine where done late. 993 does not need adjustment as they are hydraulic. Engine life on both tends to depend more on how previous owners have treated the car rather than whether 964 or 993. My experience was long term maintenance costs were similar with stuff like suspension rubbers, steering rack leaks, etc. applying equally to both.
Both great cars, very similar in many ways with many shared mechanical components. They just look very different.
I've had a 993 for approaching 5 years ( prefer the shape over 964 ), it came with refreshed suspension - lowered on H&R & Bilstein HD & more recent new rubber bits. Factory Motorsound airbox (filter housing) & Cargraphic exhaust - I like the sound of both. Also came with single-mass flywheel - really like that!
First change I made was installing HID lights (low-beam ) from Tore in Norway ( www.bergvillfx.com/index.php/products/t-light-hid-... ). If not already done, you'll benefit from this - standard low-beams are crap. Very easy DIY.
2nd job was engine mounts - I chose these : http://www.rennline.com/Rennline-Tunable-Semi-Soli...
Make sure, when you get your engine oil & filters service, to also do the trans - mine was well overdue, lead to a bit of misbehaviour when hot.
Cheers - David
First change I made was installing HID lights (low-beam ) from Tore in Norway ( www.bergvillfx.com/index.php/products/t-light-hid-... ). If not already done, you'll benefit from this - standard low-beams are crap. Very easy DIY.
2nd job was engine mounts - I chose these : http://www.rennline.com/Rennline-Tunable-Semi-Soli...
Make sure, when you get your engine oil & filters service, to also do the trans - mine was well overdue, lead to a bit of misbehaviour when hot.
Cheers - David
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I admit putting it like that was lazy. What I meant is the hypothesis that because singer started getting popular and it was widely communicated that he chose the 964 as the base car, that it was an important factor in helping drive up demand for 964s. That's not to say they weren't already growing in popularity among pockets of enthusiasts who had realised the early reputations of the car were unfairly harsh based on a bunch of issues that over time got fixed on most 964s, but that singer helped bring respect for 964s to the masses.OP, I used Northway for the PPI on my first 993 and they were v good, spotted lots of things to raise with the dealer. But do check that the PPI also covers a proper look at the bodywork as well as the mechanicals.
don't know how the driving of a 993 is, but I know that at the time I liked to own a 993 s2 but to expensive back then :-)
I owned a 964 carrera 2 midnightblue in RS look (outside a few things), when I bought it it came with a 3.8 300hp RS engine, which I liked.
The seller told me that the original 3.6 gave up behind repair? and the same day a original 3.8 RS had a big accident at the time behind repair...
The garage owner knew that the 964 owner wanted to drive soon again in his carrera 2 , so the garage owner were it was brought to, asked the owner,
do you mind if we put that 3.8 RS engine in it, we don't have a 3.6 at the moment, but that RS 3.8 engine came free today...lol, so thats the story and how I bought the 964
Long time ago (20 years or so), so I sadly have only the scanned in pictures :-)
I owned a 964 carrera 2 midnightblue in RS look (outside a few things), when I bought it it came with a 3.8 300hp RS engine, which I liked.
The seller told me that the original 3.6 gave up behind repair? and the same day a original 3.8 RS had a big accident at the time behind repair...
The garage owner knew that the 964 owner wanted to drive soon again in his carrera 2 , so the garage owner were it was brought to, asked the owner,
do you mind if we put that 3.8 RS engine in it, we don't have a 3.6 at the moment, but that RS 3.8 engine came free today...lol, so thats the story and how I bought the 964
Long time ago (20 years or so), so I sadly have only the scanned in pictures :-)
The 964 is the better car if you want to hot rod it.
993 rear suspension is vague unless you do a lot of work and money on it.
They all leak oil and at the heads and rms etc,most will need a engine rebuild.
The tiptronics are the pits of a 911,slow,aweful to drive.
They will all be a money pit if you want to do something special on them,another idea make your 997gt3 more exciting to drive,what ever you do good luck and get plenty of advice,best buy a car from some one who has really looked after the car,be carefull of dealers and inspectors.
Look for the expensive parts are good,engine box and especially chassis damage/rust,some 993 have suffered awkward rusting points on the shell.Most will need running gear refurb.
Even better find one some one has done most of the work on
993 rear suspension is vague unless you do a lot of work and money on it.
They all leak oil and at the heads and rms etc,most will need a engine rebuild.
The tiptronics are the pits of a 911,slow,aweful to drive.
They will all be a money pit if you want to do something special on them,another idea make your 997gt3 more exciting to drive,what ever you do good luck and get plenty of advice,best buy a car from some one who has really looked after the car,be carefull of dealers and inspectors.
Look for the expensive parts are good,engine box and especially chassis damage/rust,some 993 have suffered awkward rusting points on the shell.Most will need running gear refurb.
Even better find one some one has done most of the work on
v8ksn said:
Morning all
Can anyone give me some advice please on the main differences between a late model 964 and a 993. I am leaning towards selling my 997.1 GT3 and buying/building my own air cooled car and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I see lots of 964’s are advertised as having recent engine rebuilds, is this because the 964 engine was originally designed without a gasket and top-end rebuilds are required? Will a 993 engine need a rebuild at around 100k to?
Also, the 964 asking prices are considerably higher than a similar mileage 993, why is this? What am I missing that everyone else seems to know? Is the 964 THAT much ‘better’ than the 993?
Sorry for the inevitable newbie questions, I have been a kettle man for a while and I am just starting looking at air cooled cars again.
I V8KSNCan anyone give me some advice please on the main differences between a late model 964 and a 993. I am leaning towards selling my 997.1 GT3 and buying/building my own air cooled car and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I see lots of 964’s are advertised as having recent engine rebuilds, is this because the 964 engine was originally designed without a gasket and top-end rebuilds are required? Will a 993 engine need a rebuild at around 100k to?
Also, the 964 asking prices are considerably higher than a similar mileage 993, why is this? What am I missing that everyone else seems to know? Is the 964 THAT much ‘better’ than the 993?
Sorry for the inevitable newbie questions, I have been a kettle man for a while and I am just starting looking at air cooled cars again.
AS my previous thread, I am looking for an air-cooled. Looking for a 964 back. Also have a 997.1 GT3. Im after a left hand drive as I plan to move to Europe. I notice there are some lovely 964 carrera 4,s about. I've always preferred 2 wheel drive 911,s but sometimes with our European weather the 4 wheel drive might be handy. Just wondered on peoples views between 2 and 4 wheel drive.
Hi Darren,
964 Carrera 4 is a great car but a couple of things to consider having owned one:
- the steering suffers from the 4wd system, it's heavier and not as communicative as in the 2wd 911
- in my experience, with the stock suspension the car is very prone to extreme understeer at the limit...as in you turn but the car locks up and ploughs on in a straight line. If you're proficient at trail-braking then maybe it won't happen...when I had one I wasn't. That said this characteristic can be removed with new suspension, geo etc.
964 Carrera 4 is a great car but a couple of things to consider having owned one:
- the steering suffers from the 4wd system, it's heavier and not as communicative as in the 2wd 911
- in my experience, with the stock suspension the car is very prone to extreme understeer at the limit...as in you turn but the car locks up and ploughs on in a straight line. If you're proficient at trail-braking then maybe it won't happen...when I had one I wasn't. That said this characteristic can be removed with new suspension, geo etc.
GTRene said:
don't know how the driving of a 993 is, but I know that at the time I liked to own a 993 s2 but to expensive back then :-)
I owned a 964 carrera 2 midnightblue in RS look (outside a few things), when I bought it it came with a 3.8 300hp RS engine, which I liked.
The seller told me that the original 3.6 gave up behind repair? and the same day a original 3.8 RS had a big accident at the time behind repair...
The garage owner knew that the 964 owner wanted to drive soon again in his carrera 2 , so the garage owner were it was brought to, asked the owner,
do you mind if we put that 3.8 RS engine in it, we don't have a 3.6 at the moment, but that RS 3.8 engine came free today...lol, so thats the story and how I bought the 964
Long time ago (20 years or so), so I sadly have only the scanned in pictures :-)
What a result. So there could be a 964 C2 out there with an M64/04 engine - engine is probably worth as much as the car now, if not more I owned a 964 carrera 2 midnightblue in RS look (outside a few things), when I bought it it came with a 3.8 300hp RS engine, which I liked.
The seller told me that the original 3.6 gave up behind repair? and the same day a original 3.8 RS had a big accident at the time behind repair...
The garage owner knew that the 964 owner wanted to drive soon again in his carrera 2 , so the garage owner were it was brought to, asked the owner,
do you mind if we put that 3.8 RS engine in it, we don't have a 3.6 at the moment, but that RS 3.8 engine came free today...lol, so thats the story and how I bought the 964
Long time ago (20 years or so), so I sadly have only the scanned in pictures :-)
Steve Rance said:
Chassis wise there is nothing in it to be honest. Both have coil overs front and rear, the 993 has more links in the rear but having driven both, there's nothing in it in terms of feel. Both will benefit from rose jointed rear spring plates which transforms the handling. Ignore the front bump steer fables of the 964
I'm going to have to disagree with you on several points there Steve. Whilst the frond ends are very similar (and thus what the front end does and how it make the car feel and steer are broadly the same) the rear end of the 993 was, as you know, markedly different. IIRC the 993 rear end was originally conceived for a four door saloon car that Porsche were intending to manufacture.No doubt desperate to get away from the semi trailing arms that imbued the early 911 with its renowed treacherous handling, the stillborn saloon car rear suspension found its way under the rear of the 993.
As Paul has said in a later post, the LSA rear axle introduced a host of bushes, some of which were designed to instill a degree of rear steer to make the 993 a sharper car. In reality, all it did was introduce a lot of vagueness which required committed driving to load the rear suspension up, to the point whereby it became stable.
Like you, I much prefer the more "honest" rear end of the 964, it telegraphs a lot more information even when only lightly loaded on the road, and that in turn makes for a much more feelsome package.
Don't get me wrong, I had a couple of almighty moments in my 993 RS on the road, both I suspect would have resulted in the 964 RS spitting me off the roads backwards at very high speed (or maybe not, the 964's more honest chassis would most likely have started to protest at what I was attempting, much earlier) either way that 993 rear end definitely saved the day, but the majority of the time, I disliked it, immensely
Steve Rance said:
This is cured by the modified spring plates.
I'm unsure if you're including the 993 in this statement Steve ? I ask as there's nothing resembling a spring plate in the rear suspension of the later car.Steve Rance said:
They won't cover the ground like a 997 GT3
But neither would you want to, and that's exactly why the OP is considering going the aircooled route (as have I) the downside is the 964 and 993 aren't cheap cars to use as the base for something rewarding, tactile and engaging to drive these days.Steve Rance said:
Get a good one and you really can go wrong with either.
I presume you meant can't Steve ?? !!Gassing Station | Porsche Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff