Politeness, Rudeness and PH

[surveyor]

There was a time when PH was a community who were there to help each other, to look out for each other and generally get on well. Sure there were always some areas (such as the Lounge) which could a little more 'judgemental' and where the wolves lived, but if someone needed advice it came.

Over the past few months, there's become a trend to mock, attack and insult posters who have asked for help. On occasions this has been deserved, but on many occasions it has not.

This thread is an example - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - guy concerned about his partner, gets laid into.

Mods seem to ignore this and as it looks clever and witty, it's spreading. I accept it's easy to get sucked into, but it would be nice to see mods stepping in and calming the tone and continue making the site a pleasant place to discuss motors with like minded people.

[Bill]

Have you rportedn it? Because we don't read everything and can't step in if we're unaware if problems.

That said I think it's being dealt with in thread. There a couple if idiots but they've been put in their place by other users so if we had seen it we would probably leave it as is.

[MG CHRIS]

It's been like it for years I started a similar thread last year about it, it hasn't changed since tbh my post rate this year has dropped as a result to many people take what you say and twist it around to suit their argument then it spirals out of control. perfectly good threads are ruined by idiots who cant let things go.

I just post in the btcc threads and a few others that don't seem to attract idiots.

[surveyor]

I've quoted this specifically, simply because it was at hand. Similar thread this morning where a young chap was getting grief, rather than advice. Now he perhaps did deserve a bit of a man up, but for someone who was clearly struggling a little he did not need the tirade that the witty posters decided that he should receive.

In the Lounge fair enough, but in the more serious sections.

And while we could report threads, its more general than that.

[Turn7]

Sadly, PH isnt the place it used to be in Teds days.

I find the best thing to do is avoid the general fora and stick to the more specialized ones - they still have that old feel.

[Garlick]

Turn7 said:

Sadly, PH isnt the place it used to be in Teds days.

I find the best thing to do is avoid the general fora and stick to the more specialized ones - they still have that old feel.

Even as the chap who works here I think that is fair, and is certainly how we'd like to it remain as the site grows (in terms of the lower-level areas retaining proper chat.

The appointment of Eybic (Nathan) is intended to offer a more permanent eye on the forums, to assist with more 'here and now' moderation and also to encourage self-moderation too.

It's the age old issue of having 800k users per month (I remember that milestone happening in '06) to the 5m we have today.

I've stepped away from a lot of the 'business' tasks I used to manage to take a more full-time view of the forums starting in earnest in 2014 too

[eybic]

If anything genuinely concerns you, please feel free to let me know either by contacting me via my profile or the rest of the moderation team by clicking the report button.

[spitsfire]

Garlick said:

Even as the chap who works here I think that is fair, and is certainly how we'd like to it remain as the site grows (in terms of the lower-level areas retaining proper chat.

The appointment of Eybic (Nathan) is intended to offer a more permanent eye on the forums, to assist with more 'here and now' moderation and also to encourage self-moderation too.

It's the age old issue of having 800k users per month (I remember that milestone happening in '06) to the 5m we have today.

I've stepped away from a lot of the 'business' tasks I used to manage to take a more full-time view of the forums starting in earnest in 2014 too

Hats off to you, Garlick, for identifying this issue and getting your sleeves rolled up.

However, whilst I do agree with the general point you're making, I'm not sure I'd agree with your diagnosis. Many of the most inflammatory/intolerant posts come from long-standing members, or those with hundreds (if not thousands) of previous posts: They don't seem to come from new members/occasional posters. Most stuff is taken in good humour (something I do like about the PH forums) but there are members who seem determined to push the boundaries of fair comment.

I'm not a fan of banning people/locking threads, but I do have to question the efficacy of a system where Welshbeef gets banned from a forum for posting a fairy-tail whilst at the same time I've read some posts about gays, ethnic groups, and so on, and thought they come dangerously close to incitement, but don't seem to provoke any reaction from the mods.

[Shaw Tarse]

spitsfire said:

Garlick said:

Even as the chap who works here I think that is fair, and is certainly how we'd like to it remain as the site grows (in terms of the lower-level areas retaining proper chat.

The appointment of Eybic (Nathan) is intended to offer a more permanent eye on the forums, to assist with more 'here and now' moderation and also to encourage self-moderation too.

It's the age old issue of having 800k users per month (I remember that milestone happening in '06) to the 5m we have today.

I've stepped away from a lot of the 'business' tasks I used to manage to take a more full-time view of the forums starting in earnest in 2014 too

Hats off to you, Garlick, for identifying this issue and getting your sleeves rolled up.

However, whilst I do agree with the general point you're making, I'm not sure I'd agree with your diagnosis. Many of the most inflammatory/intolerant posts come from long-standing members, or those with hundreds (if not thousands) of previous posts: They don't seem to come from new members/occasional posters. Most stuff is taken in good humour (something I do like about the PH forums) but there are members who seem determined to push the boundaries of fair comment.

I'm not a fan of banning people/locking threads, but I do have to question the efficacy of a system where Welshbeef gets banned from a forum for posting a fairy-tail whilst at the same time I've read some posts about gays, ethnic groups, and so on, and thought they come dangerously close to incitement, but don't seem to provoke any reaction from the mods.

As has been said, the mods don't (can't) read every post if you see a "problem" post, click report & it will get read, though maybe not immediately, mods on PH aren't paid (apart from ebiyc, who gets paid for browsing PH )

[anonymous-user]

Garlick said:

Even as the chap who works here I think that is fair, and is certainly how we'd like to it remain as the site grows (in terms of the lower-level areas retaining proper chat.

The appointment of Eybic (Nathan) is intended to offer a more permanent eye on the forums, to assist with more 'here and now' moderation and also to encourage self-moderation too.

It's the age old issue of having 800k users per month (I remember that milestone happening in '06) to the 5m we have today.

I've stepped away from a lot of the 'business' tasks I used to manage to take a more full-time view of the forums starting in earnest in 2014 too

I think there's a lot - too much, really - junk in the PH forums mainly in the form of useless/abusive/argumentative responses. The genuinely abusive and rude posts are a part of a wider problem, that being that the level of discussion outside the specialist forums is often too low-level to bother with.

Whether PH's owners care about, I don't know. I'd guess that as long as visitor numbers keep rising, there's an "it can't be broke so we not going to fix it" approach. Not a fan of that, but fair enough - it's not my site.

The abusive/argumentative posts are more of an issue though, even if they are only part of a broader problem. There are as I see it two aspects to getting anything done about them.

First, the volume of posts on PH means that pro-active moderating is next to impossible. The mods can only realistically respond to reported posts. So if you're not reporting it, ask yourself why not.

Secondly, what's the standard expected of posters? I've had a quick whizz around the forums and links and in 5 mins couldn't find a "Rules for Posting on PH Forums" or similar guide. I can't recall now whether I signed up to such rules when I created an account - if I did, I don't remember what they said. However, if the mods want to impose some standards, it would be a good idea to have some standards written down - if necessary as a sticky in each forum - so that they are publicised.

Quite how strict those rules would be is a separate question. I frequent forums with deathly strict rules and pretty loose rules, and a lot in between. I'd say PH is a fair way towards the loose end of the spectrum; it's a safe distance from what I'd call "just right" - as to which, see the "it can't be broke" point above.

[spitsfire]

Shaw Tarse said:

As has been said, the mods don't (can't) read every post if you see a "problem" post, click report & it will get read, though maybe not immediately, mods on PH aren't paid (apart from ebiyc, who gets paid for browsing PH )

Do appreciate that, but there are the some threads (and they're fairly easily identified from the titles) where those of a more intolerant or sociopathic bent repeatedly vent. I'm loathe to report comments, simply because I don't want to see intolerant or obnoxious people banned; I'd rather they were challenged, exposed, and encouraged to address whatever part of their personality makes them behave like such a dick. That said, it does destroy a lot of good threads when somebody goes OTT or takes the conversation down a tangent by coming out with some rank bigotry or rudeness that cannot go unchallenged.

Maybe the solution could be, rather than banning/blocking/deleting posts from the offending poster, to send them a friendly email pointing out that they've gone a bit OTT, and PH would be grateful if they could calm down and behave like a grown-up......

[Shaw Tarse]

spitsfire said:

Maybe the solution could be, rather than banning/blocking/deleting posts from the offending poster, to send them a friendly email pointing out that they've gone a bit OTT, and PH would be grateful if they could calm down and behave like a grown-up......

This does happen, it's rare that someone will get binned/banned for a first offence.

[anonymous-user]

spitsfire said:

Do appreciate that, but there are the some threads (and they're fairly easily identified from the titles) where those of a more intolerant or sociopathic bent repeatedly vent. I'm loathe to report comments, simply because I don't want to see intolerant or obnoxious people banned; I'd rather they were challenged, exposed, and encouraged to address whatever part of their personality makes them behave like such a dick. That said, it does destroy a lot of good threads when somebody goes OTT or takes the conversation down a tangent by coming out with some rank bigotry or rudeness that cannot go unchallenged.

Maybe the solution could be, rather than banning/blocking/deleting posts from the offending poster, to send them a friendly email pointing out that they've gone a bit OTT, and PH would be grateful if they could calm down and behave like a grown-up......

Isn't the weakness in the email this: the sort of person who posts the type of post you've mentioned is attention seeking. If you send them an email, you confirm to them that they've got attention, but there's no real sanction applied.

Everyone has a different threshold, I admit, but personally I'd rather see more use of the "report" button, and if the post(s) fall foul of whatever standards are set, they are deleted; reoffending gets a short ban; further re-offending gets a long ban.

However, that depends, as I said, on there being an appetite in the first place to be a bit more heavy handed than PH is at the moment.

Banning also introduces the question of IP blocking if it to work - again, does PH have an appetite for that?

[Bill]

Greg66 said:

First, the volume of posts on PH means that pro-active moderating is next to impossible. The mods can only realistically respond to reported posts. So if you're not reporting it, ask yourself why not.

Secondly, what's the standard expected of posters? I've had a quick whizz around the forums and links and in 5 mins couldn't find a "Rules for Posting on PH Forums" or similar guide.

Your first point is very valid. We won't ban people immediately, but can fire a shot across their bows to calm them down.

The rules are at the bottom of every page.

[anonymous-user]

Bill said:

The rules are at the bottom of every page.

Ah yes! So they are.

Well, ahem, perhaps they ought to be a bit more prominent!

I shall now retire to Specsavers.

[Bill]

The escalation we use is exactly as you describe. If people don't get the message (usually they do...) the sanctions escalate.

[Kinky]

Greg66 said:

Bill said:

The rules are at the bottom of every page.

Ah yes! So they are.

Well, ahem, perhaps they ought to be a bit more prominent!

I shall now retire to Specsavers.

They are also immediately above the text box when you post a response.

[anonymous-user]

Kinky said:

Greg66 said:

Bill said:

The rules are at the bottom of every page.

Ah yes! So they are.

Well, ahem, perhaps they ought to be a bit more prominent!

I shall now retire to Specsavers.

They are also immediately above the text box when you post a response.

Oi! No one likes a smartarse, y'know!

[Kinky]

I could say that you will also have read and agreed to them when you first signed up.

But I won't