Does The Volunteer Forum Moderator Model Work?

[ChimpOnGas]

Dear all,

The following is just my opinion on the title question, it is not delivered to you as gospel of ChimpOnGas but merely intended to stimulate discussion.


So here goes....

I always thought PH was pulling a very cheeky and shortsighted stunt by having the forum part of their business policed by unpaid volunteers.

On the face of it employing people for nothing looks like a great high margin business model, but in my experience....

"If You Pay Peanuts You Get Monkeys" and if you pay zero peanuts you get unaccountable monkeys!

Please note I am not specifically calling any of the PH moderators monkeys here

All I'm saying is by not paying them PH (who are now a commercial business) are running the risk of losing control of their business.

It is therefore PH who are the monkeys, not the moderators!

What first looked like a clever way in increase margins, soon becomes a really dumb business decision. Being cheap in business never works, you've got to pay people for the work they do because that's the only way you're assured the standards you define. If a paid employee starts to let standards slip you can sack them, and replace them with someone who does the job the way you want them to.

Employ volunteers and and you lose this control of quality and consistency, and before too long you are losing your customers.

Not long after that you've lost your business.

The lesson here is clear....

"Don't Be Cheap And Try To Run Your Business Using Volunteers".

Personally I think the volunteer forum moderator model was acceptable when PH wasn't a business in the traditional sense of the word, but now it's a wealthy commercial enterprise owned by The Haymarket Media Group and drawing large advertising revenues...

"Is it really fair or commercially sensible for the unpaid volunteer staffing model to continue?"

I'd say no... but what do you think?

Discuss.......

[Kinky]

I've moved this to the Website Feedback forum, which is probably more appropriate.

Regards,

Your friendly Sunday afternoon unaccountable monkey.

[marshalla]

If everyone followed the rules that they, allegedly, agree to when they sign up, there'd be no need for moderators.

I'd much rather be policed by my peers than a paid official who is totally subservient to the commercial whims of the site owners.

[macdeb]

Hhmmm, I sort of see what you mean though 'some' volunteers can be enthusiastic as opposed to just doing the day job and others can just get in the bloody way. One thing for sure is that 'good' volunteers are a valuable asset it whatever role. I think it's more how things are interpreted.
PH started on a downward slide when Haymarket took over. Since then everything has got too PC, they dropped the tagline 'speedmatters' for instance without explanation though it's clear to see why and have even gone back through the archives deleting any 'girlie' pictures of cars! Pathetic What next? ban pictures of cars next to Churches so as not to offend non Christians? Ban pictures in England so as not to upset the Welsh? Ban black cars?
Information is diluted as many of the more well informed names have given up and gone since due to needless confrontation which is a crying shame only to be replaced by, well I wont go there suffice to say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Thought I'd get in before it's moved/deleted

Edited by macdeb on Sunday 6th December 13:16

Edited by macdeb on Sunday 6th December 13:17

[ClassiChimi]

Who the feckless should work for free,, if someone's making a profit from a business,,, surely its employees no matter how your wording it should be paid,, pistonheads is now massive,,, how many moderators do they have moderating at any given time,,, is it hundreds or just a few sharpe chaps with an innate ability to speed read

Volunteering is a remarkable thing we humans do to help others in life,,,does pistonheads rely on volunteers because they can't afford it or because someone's a very clever business person, sat on a big boat in the sun with 6 women cooking him food,,,
Seriously,,,so many so called businesses get away with using the good will of enthusiasts yet someone's making millions,,,,
Is this the case with Pistonheads,,,
We live in the free world and hence we have free speech,,,to discuss a business model is normal practice,,,
Let's see the figures of just how many moderators are required to operate this vast site,,,
Consider the cost of paying them,, if there's still profit then the moderators should be paid !
I wouldn't work for a bank for free,,, or a builder come to think of it,,
My mate works from home sorting out computer problems for a BINGO online site,,,old ladies who can't log on he gets paid for it,,,
In this case the moderators have to consider a number of issues,, yes they should all be paid ,,,

[marshalla]

ClassiChimi said:

Who the feckless should work for free,, if someone's making a profit from a business,,, surely its employees no matter how your wording it should be paid,, pistonheads is now massive,,, how many moderators do they have moderating at any given time,,, is it hundreds or just a few sharpe chaps with an innate ability to speed read

Volunteering is a remarkable thing we humans do to help others in life,,,does pistonheads rely on volunteers because they can't afford it or because someone's a very clever business person, sat on a big boat in the sun with 6 women cooking him food,,,
Seriously,,,so many so called businesses get away with using the good will of enthusiasts yet someone's making millions,,,,
Is this the case with Pistonheads,,,
We live in the free world and hence we have free speech,,,to discuss a business model is normal practice,,,
Let's see the figures of just how many moderators are required to operate this vast site,,,
Consider the cost of paying them,, if there's still profit then the moderators should be paid !
I wouldn't work for a bank for free,,, or a builder come to think of it,,
My mate works from home sorting out computer problems for a BINGO online site,,,old ladies who can't log on he gets paid for it,,,
In this case the moderators have to consider a number of issues,, yes they should all be paid ,,,

Your keyboard is broken.

[drivin_me_nuts]

IMO, PH works fine as a volunteer moderated forum because those who do it, do I with a volunteer's commitment. There is a personal investment far greater than a salaried bod would do.

It's at times a thankless job but one that us 'end users' appreciate the value of.

[ChimpOnGas]

marshalla said:

If everyone followed the rules that they, allegedly, agree to when they sign up, there'd be no need for moderators.

I'd much rather be policed by my peers than a paid official who is totally subservient to the commercial whims of the site owners.

Is it really that simple?

All businesses must pay their staff a fair reward for a fair days work, why do Haymarket think they any different?

I fully appreciate the volunteer Moderators are doing what they do in good faith, but if they really understood the profits being made on the back of their freely given efforts, I'm not so sure they would be so charitable?

Would you turn up for work on Monday knowing you are not going to be paid a single penny?

How would you then feel when your boss turns up in his new F-Type Jag?

I'm not saying the moderators are mugs, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't work for Haymarket for free

[rohrl]

In my opinion the only important thing about how the moderators work is that they should be consistent in their removals of content and suspension/banning of posters.

[Big Al.]

ChimpOnGas said:

I'm not saying the moderators are mugs, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't work for Haymarket for free

Sounds to me that you are calling us mugs, why? because unlike you we do do it for free.

OK we might get asked if we'd like to attend an organised event now and then (read free entry), but we still have to make own own way there and if during the working week in my case take an unpaid holiday.

Personally I'm not sure I'd want to be a mod on here if I was paid, why because I would be duty bound to work the forums in HM's time rather than mine as and when I want to.

All IMHO of course.

[drivin_me_nuts]

ChimpOnGas said:

marshalla said:

If everyone followed the rules that they, allegedly, agree to when they sign up, there'd be no need for moderators.

I'd much rather be policed by my peers than a paid official who is totally subservient to the commercial whims of the site owners.

Is it really that simple?

All businesses must pay their staff a fair reward for a fair days work, why do Haymarket think they any different?

I fully appreciate the volunteer Moderators are doing what they do in good faith, but if they really understood the profits being made on the back of their freely given efforts, I'm not so sure they would be so charitable?

Would you turn up for work on Monday knowing you are not going to be paid a single penny?

How would you then feel when your boss turns up in his new F-Type Jag?

I'm not saying the moderators are mugs, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't work for Haymarket for free

People are asked to be moderators and people do it for all kinds of reasons. That said, you should be confident and can rest assured that you would not be asked to be a moderator, so that's one less thing for you to worry over.

[ChimpOnGas]

Big Al. said:

ChimpOnGas said:

I'm not saying the moderators are mugs, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't work for Haymarket for free

Sounds to me that you are calling us mugs, why? because unlike you we do do it for free.

OK we might get asked if we'd like to attend an organised event now and then (read free entry), but we still have to make own own way there and if during the working week in my case take an unpaid holiday.

Personally I'm not sure I'd want to be a mod on here if I was paid, why because I would be duty bound to work the forums in HM's time rather than mine as and when I want to.

All IMHO of course.

Firstly, there's nothing to be ashamed of if you were rewarded for your work, indeed I'm confused why you feel the need to defend the fact you get nothing for your efforts. If you think about it, by suggesting you should be paid I'm actually on your side here.

So don't get upset with me Big Al, I've been very clear to say this isn't an attack on the moderators. If you're happy giving away your time to commercial organization for free that's entirely up to you, all I'm saying is I wouldn't do it.

Especially if I knew big profits were being enjoyed on the back of my freely given time.

However, I'm not sure I understand this comment from you

Big Al. said:

Sounds to me that you are calling us mugs, why? because unlike you we do do it for free.

That's a pretty direct accusation there Big Al...

So it's only fair that I respond by challenging you to show me the courtesy of qualifying the because unlike you we do do it for free element.

Just for the record you couldn't find a someone that better defines the term "Amateur TVR Enthusiast" than me, I have no idea why you are accusing me of being paid other than as a defensive response to the clear mistake you made when removing my "Chimaera Cutaway" post, which was a very unpopular move amongst the TVR community by the way.

The truth is I work for a large stationery provider, it couldn't be further from a life making money from the TVR world. My role in sales may help me present my Piston Head contributions in a more eloquent and professional way than some, but that doesn't make me a TVR trader or someone seeking financial gain from my posts. look at my history, see how many I've helped and who have helped me on the forum, and it doesn't take a genius to see I'm just another amateur TVR enthusiast.

If you have specific evidence so support your allegation that I'm being paid, I encourage you to reveal it now, I also recommend you avoid making unsupported assumptions just because you're feeling a little wounded.

As I've said many times... I'm not having a go at the moderators here, I'm simply asking a perfectly reasonable question, one I would ask of any business that uses volunteers to run their commercial enterprise.

This is a perfectly reasonable and valid post, it is clearly of interest to the PH readership, it also breaks no rules... and unlike the accusation from Big Al that I'm being paid, I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

Please don't let your emotions get in the way of being a decent and reasonable person, and please don't allow yourself to become disrespectful to valued contributors by making false allegations unsupported by evidence.

Because quite simply Big Al, it'll just reflect badly on you and drive people away in the end!

ChimpOnGas said:

Is it really that simple?

All businesses must pay their staff a fair reward for a fair days work, why do Haymarket think they any different?

I fully appreciate the volunteer Moderators are doing what they do in good faith, but if they really understood the profits being made on the back of their freely given efforts, I'm not so sure they would be so charitable?

Would you turn up for work on Monday knowing you are not going to be paid a single penny?

How would you then feel when your boss turns up in his new F-Type Jag?

I'm not saying the moderators are mugs, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't work for Haymarket for free

This says more about you than us mods, imo.

[V8FGO]

Can anyone even name any website forum that has paid moderators.

[ray von]

said:

This says more about you than us mods, imo.

Who said that?

[Number 7]

Giving up ones free time for no reward (assuming that there is no other non-cash benefit available)is usually a very commendable thing to: for a not-for-profit club, charitable organisation, philanthropic / social causes or even a political party if you are that way inclined.

Offhand though, I can't think of examples of individuals giving up their free time to assist the profitability of commercial enterprises, especially one, as in the case of Haymarket, that is long established, and owned by (Baron) Michael Heseltine.

There's always an agenda - it would be interesting to know exactly what it is in this case.

ETA, looking at Haymarket's website, it would appear that of the 9 members of the senior management team, there is not a single woman. Maybe diversity needs addressing?

Edited by Number 7 on Sunday 6th December 15:09

[ChimpOnGas]

ray von said:

said:

This says more about you than us mods, imo.

Who said that?

Come on guys, try to stay on topic, it's a valid question.

I'm not offended by Big Al's unsubstantiated allegations that I get paid for posting on these pages, and I'm not having a go at anyone, least of all the moderators.

As an impartial and significant amateur Piston Heads contributor of many years standing all I'm doing here is asking a perfectly reasonable question.

"Should The Moderators Get A Fair Salary For Their Efforts Now Piston Heads Is a Commercial Enterprise That Commercially Benefits From Their Work?"

If all this dissolves into personal attack, especially if the attacks are coming from the very moderators who are meant to be impartial...

What hope is there?

[m4tti]

V8FGO said:

Can anyone even name any website forum that has paid moderators.

BBC news comments

[ChimpOnGas]

Number 7 said:

Giving up ones free time for no reward (assuming that there is no other non-cash benefit available)is usually a very commendable thing to: for a not-for-profit club, charitable organisation, philanthropic / social causes or even a political party if you are that way inclined.

Offhand though, I can't think of examples of individuals giving up their free time to assist the profitability of commercial enterprises, especially one, as in the case of Haymarket, that is long established, and owned by (Baron) Michael Heseltine.

There's always an agenda - it would be interesting to know exactly what it is in this case.

ETA, looking at Haymarket's website, it would appear that of the 9 members of the senior management team, there is not a single woman. Maybe diversity needs addressing?

Edited by Number 7 on Sunday 6th December 15:09

All good points, well made.

Thank you for your very reasoned, logical and well presented view point.

And who knows... If we build enough momentum on this Haymarket themselves may start listening and even agree to pay their moderators properly?

At which point the moderators will be welcome to thank me for helping them get a fair financial reward for the work they currently give to the wealthy Haymarket group for free.

Well, it could happen!

[rohrl]

ChimpOnGas said:

I'm not offended by Big Al's unsubstantiated allegations that I get paid for posting on these pages,

I'm not a mod and I hold no brief for Big Al, but he didn't say that at all. You have failed in your comprehension.