Transphobia on Pistonheads

[anonymous-user]

Hi there

Would it possible to get a statement from the forum management team regarding their thoughts on the Pistonheads forum being used as a platform for some users to promote segregation, discrimination and hate against people of the transgender community?

While there does seem to be several forum rules that seem to be intended on promoting equality amongst people, they don’t ever really seem to be enforced in regards to transphobia?
Rules that apply to virtually every single transgender centric thread I’ve contributed to within the last ~3years:

Do not post material that could be deemed as offensive, annoying or upsetting.
Do not be deliberately contrary, or argumentative for the sake of it, or post content that is off topic and not related to the thread.
Do not post links, gifs or images which contain violent, racist or sexist material or material which could be seen as offensive or unlawful in any way.
Any messages involving threats of or encouraging public fear, terrorist threats or threats towards CarGurus/PistonHeads, its employees or other individuals will be escalated to the relevant authorities.
Types of threads/posts that are not permitted in the forums:…Threads specifically to discuss the appearance of a person or group of people.

Most (but not all) in full display here
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

To be very clear, I am not calling for censorship or against free debate and discussion. Quite the contrary I and the handful of trans positive users seemingly relish a good debate and would love to share our experiences the actual realities of being trans and what it means, even if it is with people that may have a fundamental difference of opinion.

But that difference of opinion needs to be presented in a respectful way and that is absolutely not is what is happening with the current moderation stance. In fact quite the contrary, certain posters are becoming even more inflammatory and offensive to the point where I and several other users are starting to feel we are no longer welcome on pistonheads after years of posting

All I am asking for is that all protected characteristics are treated equally in the eyes of all forum users and the moderation team. I’d like to imagine some of the comments regularly made by posters on this forum would absolutely not be deemed acceptable to say about race or disability or any of the other protected characteristics enshrined in law, why fall short at gender reassignment?

Thank you for your time

[DanL]

Not trans, but I could see where that thread was going to head… I reported a few comments early on, but they’re still there so I stopped bothering.

[anonymous-user]

DanL said:

Not trans, but I could see where that thread was going to head… I reported a few comments early on, but they’re still there so I stopped bothering.

Genuinely thank you

[Ben Lowden]

Thank you for raising this. The rules are the same for everybody on PH and everyone is treated equally, no matter the subject of discussion.

Our forum is moderated reactively, so we rely on members reporting posts to us that are in breach of our rules of posting. Therefore if you see a post that you think breaks our rules, please report it so we can review it and take necessary action.

We have strict guidelines and members are suspended or banned from the forums for repeat offences. Our new rules that we put in place for NP&E also mean that once someone is banned, there's very little chance they'll be coming back.

[anonymous-user]

Ben Lowden said:

Thank you for raising this. The rules are the same for everybody on PH and everyone is treated equally, no matter the subject of discussion.

Our forum is moderated reactively, so we rely on members reporting posts to us that are in breach of our rules of posting. Therefore if you see a post that you think breaks our rules, please report it so we can review it and take necessary action.

We have strict guidelines and members are suspended or banned from the forums for repeat offences. Our new rules that we put in place for NP&E also mean that once someone is banned, there's very little chance they'll be coming back.

With all due respect DanL posting within 10 minutes of my thread going live suggesting that they had reported offensive posts that are still up suggests the moderation stance clearly isn't working

I personally in the past have only reported the absolutely most annoying, frustrating and offensive posts as like I said, I'd rather have a debate and challenge peoples thoughts than being branded a "snowflake", but again every single time no moderation action was taken.

If there is no moderation action against the most offensive comments made on this forum, it gives me very little hope that the moderation team are going to crack down on the casual transphobia that now runs

Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "trans women are women" with "trans women are trans women"?

Is me hypothetically make me saying to someone claiming "disable people are people" with "ACTUALLY, disabled people are disabled people"???

It seems to be acceptable to call for blanket segregation of trans women and suspicion based entirely on criminality statics on here... Is there any of other protected charactertic where this is deemed acceptable?

Can I expect to see posts claiming I should be segregated by the virtue of the crime stats my race on PH, or is it just my gender?

This is the "free speech " transphobia I'm talking about. It was hoped that reasoned debate would at least create some fairly interesting and respectful discussions even if the view points are opposing as I've seen done in the past on other characteristics like race or religion, but that requires a basic level of respect and tact to meaningfully debate.

Respect and tact that quite clearly not given to the transgender community by many of the posters here, and the lack of intervention and silence from the moderation team for years is now beginning to suggest that they either complicit, or simply don't care about trans posters, the greater community and the REAL silent majority of impartial people like DanL who don't feel comfortable expressing their views

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th July 10:51

[SteveStrange]

No dog in this fight - people are people, and everyone has a right to live their life as they wish, but...

WorldBoss said:

Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "trans women are women" with "trans women are trans women"?

Are both sides of that argument not true? Both are valid viewpoints (which are ultimately individual opinions), and neither are outwardly offensive as far as I can see?

[mmm-five]

I know this post is not about the specific subject, just the moderation, but if PH moderated following the strict interpretation of their rules, there'd be about 1% of the stuff left...which some would say would not be a bad thing.

However, this sort of worry (or accusations/attacks from both sides of the argument) is why I try to stay out of any discussions where the viewpoints are based on personal choice...be it politics, religion or trans.

I do not consider race and disability as personal choices - unless someone it trying to fake either.

[rampageturke]

PH is very welcoming to those who like to arbitrarily hate groups of people and be home to conspiracy theorists.

A lot of forum "old boys" who think their opinions have more weight than others because they shout the loudest. PH needs an image cleanup, but nobody involved wants to put the work in, hence the "reactively moderated" excuse.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe have trans month to celebrate PH trans members, could show their cars and talk about themselves, as a lot don't understand the issues, me included.

Edited by Ouroboros on Tuesday 19th July 12:18

[8.4L 154]

I posted this in the above linked thread the other day, I have since cut my participation in that thread substantially.

8.4L 154 said:

Such a shame that pistonheads has allowed transphobia to take such a hold it is making participation impossible for trans people, First Clockwork cupcake was driven off, now you, I have walked away from these threads previously and generally cant be bothered with helping others in other areas of PH anymore, but still find myself being drawn back in when the lies are being spread. It feels pretty pointless though and plenty of those against trans representation have done their best to silence me.

Its time pistonheads stepped up, hate speech is not free speech and when people are openly equating trans people to criminals, advocating segregation and exclusion it crosses the line of reasonable debate

This though is a very disappointing response from PH

Ben Lowden said:

Thank you for raising this. The rules are the same for everybody on PH and everyone is treated equally, no matter the subject of discussion.

Our forum is moderated reactively, so we rely on members reporting posts to us that are in breach of our rules of posting. Therefore if you see a post that you think breaks our rules, please report it so we can review it and take necessary action.

We have strict guidelines and members are suspended or banned from the forums for repeat offences. Our new rules that we put in place for NP&E also mean that once someone is banned, there's very little chance they'll be coming back.

as quite honestly no the rules are not the same for everybody or rather trans people are not treated equally to other minority groups, the cheap jokes, dog whistle prejudiced language and trolling would not be tolerated if it was racism or sexist as listed in the posting rules. Rules which are quite weak in protecting any other marginalised group. I think part of the problem is recognising what is transphobia, but it appears pistonheads is not willing to listen to the experience of trans people but would just rather see them confine themselves to other forums or stop posting entirely rather than deal with what is a small number of posters who spend their time posting links to prejudiced material or just throwing random news articles portraying trans people as a problem in an exercise of trolling which has happened a few times in that thread.

I realise PH is reactively moderated and I do report posts which are using slurs or harassing, trolling, but to be honest its a fraction of the problematic content and what is reported is often not recognised and dealt with, and quite honestly I don't think pistonheads is a place where trans people are free to be themselves or feel welcome or listened to.

[anonymous-user]

SteveStrange said:

No dog in this fight - people are people, and everyone has a right to live their life as they wish, but...

WorldBoss said:

Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "trans women are women" with "trans women are trans women"?

Are both sides of that argument not true? Both are valid viewpoints (which are ultimately individual opinions), and neither are outwardly offensive as far as I can see?

It's problematic because being trans is a protected characteristic.

Given that the implication is that second group is not part of the first group, let's change it to "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "black women are women" with "black women are black women"?" or "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "Jewish women are women" with "Jewish women are Jewish women"?"

I think most people would see someone acting differently towards people based on the last two statements as deeply problematic (to put it politely), but many people's attitudes still haven't caught up with the fact that under the equality act the original statement about trans people is equally problematic.

[8.4L 154]

Ouroboros said:

Maybe have trans month to celebrate PH trans members, could show their cars and talk about themselves, as a lot don't understand the issues, me included.

Edited by Ouroboros on Tuesday 19th July 12:18

I'm not sure PH needs a trans pride month, but it would be wonderful if trans people could be positively represented, Charly Martin used to be a member and was featured in PH news a few times, her racing career is doing well but I haven't seen any further coverage.

Equally to the latter point there have been educational threads in the past where trans people have been open about their experiences and people have said they found the contributions helpful to their understanding. That however is impossible now as there are a few posters who are so hostile to trans people any thread would immediately be derailed as has happened and led to trans people restricting themselves. I wonder how long it will be before those hostile posters find this thread or maybe they will be wary of their usual antics right in the PH mod teams front room.

[8.4L 154]

Thanks worldboss for raising this issue, similar has been on my mind for a while

[SteveStrange]

charltjr said:

SteveStrange said:

No dog in this fight - people are people, and everyone has a right to live their life as they wish, but...

WorldBoss said:

Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "trans women are women" with "trans women are trans women"?

Are both sides of that argument not true? Both are valid viewpoints (which are ultimately individual opinions), and neither are outwardly offensive as far as I can see?

It's problematic because being trans is a protected characteristic.

Given that the implication is that second group is not part of the first group, let's change it to "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "black women are women" with "black women are black women"?" or "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "Jewish women are women" with "Jewish women are Jewish women"?"

I think most people would see someone acting differently towards people based on the last two statements as deeply problematic (to put it politely), but many people's attitudes still haven't caught up with the fact that under the equality act the original statement about trans people is equally problematic.

There's a lot of "I think" - which, again, brings it all down to personal opinion and definition. Who is to be the arbiter of "trans", "transphobic" etc? I have read it elsewhere before, but if someone does not want to sleep with a trans-man or trans-woman, does that make them transphobic (using transphobic as a derogatory/insulting characteristic, as in the OP's posts)

It's a difficult and emotive topic, that's for sure.

[super7]

charltjr said:

SteveStrange said:

No dog in this fight - people are people, and everyone has a right to live their life as they wish, but...

WorldBoss said:

Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "trans women are women" with "trans women are trans women"?

Are both sides of that argument not true? Both are valid viewpoints (which are ultimately individual opinions), and neither are outwardly offensive as far as I can see?

It's problematic because being trans is a protected characteristic.

Given that the implication is that second group is not part of the first group, let's change it to "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "black women are women" with "black women are black women"?" or "Genuinely, do you think it's acceptable to retort "Jewish women are women" with "Jewish women are Jewish women"?"

I think most people would see someone acting differently towards people based on the last two statements as deeply problematic (to put it politely), but many people's attitudes still haven't caught up with the fact that under the equality act the original statement about trans people is equally problematic.

But this is one of the problems..... We have all been told by law that we have to accept that Trans Women are Women and respect that view..... MOST people still can't get their head around someone born with what has been the Male Gender through the whole of time can actually refer to themselves and have the view protected by law that they are a Female??

I would suggest that most Trans women just get on with transition because they want to feel better, because their lives have been pretty crap up until the point they slap on a patch when all of a sudden a lot sense is made... they don't need to be shouty and fly a flag, they just get on with it. They just don't want abuse hurled at them down the street.... they don't want to upset anyone else either, or tread on someone else's views...

Then there's the Shouty ones. everyone has to know how upset they are. Everyone has to know when someone has been nasty. They want to push boundaries and upset people, because being shouty gives them perceived power.....

That's my view.... feel free to discount it, shout it down, cancel it, report it or whatever.... won't change me.

You should try being a Ginger from birth......

[Some Gump]

Lol.
Op starts thread that can only head in 1 direction.
Thread goes in logical direction.
Op gets upset.

Maybe the criticism shouldn't be with forum mods, but with forum contributors that go looking for drama?

[HorneyMX5]

I find it disappointing that this stuff isn’t better moderated as well, but I wonder how the mods involved feel in terms of knowing the correct position to take. I have sympathy for both, I wish people were nicer to each other.

[SteveStrange]

HorneyMX5 said:

I find it disappointing that this stuff isn’t better moderated as well, but I wonder how the mods involved feel in terms of knowing the correct position to take. I have sympathy for both, I wish people were nicer to each other.

This is my thought too - they (the mods) might think they are taking the "correct" view, but Person B will think differently, that their view is correct, and then it starts all over again. Who defines what is or is not "correct"?

[8.4L 154]

SteveStrange said:

HorneyMX5 said:

I find it disappointing that this stuff isn’t better moderated as well, but I wonder how the mods involved feel in terms of knowing the correct position to take. I have sympathy for both, I wish people were nicer to each other.

This is my thought too - they (the mods) might think they are taking the "correct" view, but Person B will think differently, that their view is correct, and then it starts all over again. Who defines what is or is not "correct"?

quite often a hypothetical substitution of the target with another minority group who have historically been targeted for abuse can reveal the morality of a post, as has been done in posts above, also listening to the target minority is a good place to start and not dismissing their concerns. Representation in decision makers is also good

[SteveStrange]

8.4L 154 said:

SteveStrange said:

HorneyMX5 said:

I find it disappointing that this stuff isn’t better moderated as well, but I wonder how the mods involved feel in terms of knowing the correct position to take. I have sympathy for both, I wish people were nicer to each other.

This is my thought too - they (the mods) might think they are taking the "correct" view, but Person B will think differently, that their view is correct, and then it starts all over again. Who defines what is or is not "correct"?

quite often a hypothetical substitution of the target with another minority group who have historically been targeted for abuse can reveal the morality of a post, as has been done in posts above, also listening to the target minority is a good place to start and not dismissing their concerns. Representation in decision makers is also good

I can't work out if you're telling me off or not. If you're trying to say I'm being (or trying to be) offensive, then I would respectfully disagree. Not being involved with the specific thread in question, I'm not sure if anything terrible has actually been said, and allowed to remain by the mods. Anyway, has anyone above said they are the target minority? Or are they just speaking on behalf of said minority?

ETA I think Horney's final sentence is the most apt in this whle exchange.