provocation vs. threatening violence

[Bodo]

This is worth a new topic, since it gives members an idea how to weight provocations to threating violence in Haymarket's Pistonhead's new policy.

900T-R said:

Stig said:

cloggy said:

What about the Ultima posters that were actually threatning him, did they get binned as well?

Well, two wrongs don't make a right, but marki was trolling that thread and the other posters reacted in kind.

As I said, it's a shame, but marki had more than his fair share or warnings about it and it seems this was one occasion too many.

That's all I've got to say about it.

Threats directed at a fellow PH'er must surely count as a rather more serious matter than a bit of trolling. That's where I draw the line regarding things progressing beyond a bit of more or less harmless fun.

Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 5th March 15:02

I rarely agreed with Marki, and his comments often were provocating; but if there's a reason to ban a member, then it is threatening other members in the forums or by PM. I lost confidence in PH's policy. If there was any justified action because of the Boyd Coddington thread¹, then I would have sin binned those who could not resist the provocation and threatened Marki with violence.

¹http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=505381&r=7486001&hm=16050#7486001

[im]

IMHO posting insults or crude/rude/disparaging remarks is not in the same league as threating to physically harm someone and sure, after a warning or two or a sin-binning or two, they should be banned.

But...if what your saying is true, that threats of violence were directed at someone because of something they posted - albeit an insulting post - then those doing the threatening need to be banned immediately. This should be regardless of their PH history or standing in the PH community or car that they drive or who's 'friend' they are.

This needs nipping in bud now.

IMHO

[Stig]

Bodo, whilst I don't want to be drawn into discussion about it - I take it that this is the bit you're referring to?

Marki said:

SplatSpeed said:

sthotfast said:

oh dear... I thought I had logged on to an Ultima discussion website... In fact I seemed to have logged on to

Chavs-want-a-punchup.com ... my mistake.....

it's ok paul ill hold your coat while you give him a damn good thrashing

You are welcome to try

Come on - that's hardly a threat is it and I believe splatspeed made it with tongue firmly in cheek - even marki took it with good humour.

Whilst I can appreciate your frustration that one of your friends got banned, as was said on the other thread, it was the last in a succession of transgressions and marki had had fair warning.

Let's just leave it at that.

[Bodo]

Stig, I wouldn't have opened a new thread if I wanted to talk about Marki being banned.

Let's keep our personal view on the individuals out of it. I disagreed more often with Marki than I found his contributions er, interesting; nor do I have an opinion of those who threatened him.

My concern is about the double standard that comes from anonymously banning a member who was (always, I'd say) provocative compared to several members threatening him with violence. It makes no difference if he copes with it better than the people who object to his opinion.

The damage to PH is higher by an obscure policy, than by members constantly airing a controversial opinion or threatening Marki doing so. As said, if I would have taken any action; I'd sin binned the threateners and probably Marki together with them (only if I had the occasion to read the subsequent discussion from the sin bin, I hasten to add). Using his disputatious contributions to that thread and the complaints about them is poor an inconsequent policy.

Whilst I do think that there are/have been contributors that didn't really add to the quality of the forums, I think it must not necessarily be the controversial personalities that have to be removed in order to raise the standard.

Edited by Bodo on Wednesday 5th March 16:40

[BiggusLaddus]

Bodo said:

Stig, I wouldn't have opened a new thread if I wanted to talk about Marki being banned.

Then surely its a non-topic? You don't want to discuss Marki being banned and there was no actual threat of violence.

[Stig]

BiggusLaddus said:

Bodo said:

Stig, I wouldn't have opened a new thread if I wanted to talk about Marki being banned.

Then surely its a non-topic? You don't want to discuss Marki being banned and there was no actual threat of violence.

Precisely.

[odyssey2200]

Seems a lot of threads being closed and I really do not think that Marki was rude or offensive.

Certainly no more so that many other posters in numerous other topic on PH

There seems to be some new, heavy handed Mods on here who do not even display their ID when the post!

There have been a number of time in the last few weekd where Ph seems to be far too PC

Someone even opened a thread about PH being invaded bythe nanny state.

Lighten up guys!!!

Edited by odyssey2200 on Wednesday 5th March 16:34

[Bodo]

I've added my post above with reasoning now. I originally hurried to get it posted because I expected this thread to be closed before a discussion evolves

[odyssey2200]

IMHO Marki just disagreed with the views of the other posters.

He flet that they were over reacting to the death of a celeb in the same way that some have to the death of Diana.
IMHO he was not rude of offensive and his banning is a Knee jerk reaction to someone posting a request to ban him.

PH-PC rules!

[900T-R]

BiggusLaddus said:

Then surely its a non-topic? You don't want to discuss Marki being banned and there was no actual threat of violence.

Um, the above was an actual threat of violence. Not one that I or anyone would take seriously, but an actual one nonetheless.

It's IMO far worse form than someone making a mildly provocative comment on how they didn't like some motoring-related TV celeb who had just died, and so were the ad hominem attacks at the poster of those remarks that followed.

TBH the whole affair had a distinct whiff of double standards depending on who says something rather than what has been said. It was just a rubbish thread, closing it and maybe a stern word to the main protagonists had sufficed IMO.

Moderation has been getting distinctly more heavy handed and imbalanced here, where it's been pretty much spot on for years - I don't think I've ever had a run in with the site mods in over five years and even I am noticing it. What's up with that?

[odyssey2200]

Oh and the topic was a REPOST!!

about 2 weeks too late too

[anonymous-user]

Stig said:

Come on - that's hardly a threat is it and I believe splatspeed made it with tongue firmly in cheek - even marki took it with good humour.

Whilst I can appreciate your frustration that one of your friends got banned, as was said on the other thread, it was the last in a succession of transgressions and marki had had fair warning.

Let's just leave it at that.

There are other thinly veiled threats where posters 'invite' him to a meet.

highflyer said:

Yo Marki, are you planning on attending any car show's over in the UK this year ?

Edited by highflyer on Tuesday 4th March 18:58

and

highflyer said:

well marki are you attending any of the car show's over here or not?

or

SplatSpeed said:

sthotfast said:

oh dear... I thought I had logged on to an Ultima discussion website... In fact I seemed to have logged on to

Chavs-want-a-punchup.com ... my mistake.....

it's ok paul ill hold your coat while you give him a damn good thrashing

SplatSpeed said:

well all be at stonleigh if you want to meet ??

you can put us straight then

Read it in context and deny it then.

Marki said he didn't like their hero. He was threatened by them and they (stigs mates) got him banned for 'trolling'

Disgraceful.

[Podie]

Bodo said:

This is worth a new topic, since it gives members an idea how to weight provocations to threating violence in Haymarket's Pistonhead's new policy.

Don't make me come over there and "duff you up"

[cloggy]

Stoveys post are exactly the threats I was talking about.

Shamefull.

Edited by cloggy on Wednesday 5th March 17:59

[odyssey2200]

Podie said:

Bodo said:

This is worth a new topic, since it gives members an idea how to weight provocations to threating violence in Haymarket's Pistonhead's new policy.

Don't make me come over there and "duff you up"

I'll get my big brother on to you!

School yard rules!!

[Podie]

odyssey2200 said:

Podie said:

Bodo said:

This is worth a new topic, since it gives members an idea how to weight provocations to threating violence in Haymarket's Pistonhead's new policy.

Don't make me come over there and "duff you up"

I'll get my big brother on to you!

School yard rules!!

[NicktheBassist]
My Dad...
[/NicktheBassist]

[Silent1]

El stovey said:

Stig said:

Come on - that's hardly a threat is it and I believe splatspeed made it with tongue firmly in cheek - even marki took it with good humour.

Whilst I can appreciate your frustration that one of your friends got banned, as was said on the other thread, it was the last in a succession of transgressions and marki had had fair warning.

Let's just leave it at that.

There are other thinly veiled threats where posters 'invite' him to a meet.

highflyer said:

Yo Marki, are you planning on attending any car show's over in the UK this year ?

Edited by highflyer on Tuesday 4th March 18:58

and

highflyer said:

well marki are you attending any of the car show's over here or not?

or

SplatSpeed said:

sthotfast said:

oh dear... I thought I had logged on to an Ultima discussion website... In fact I seemed to have logged on to

Chavs-want-a-punchup.com ... my mistake.....

it's ok paul ill hold your coat while you give him a damn good thrashing

SplatSpeed said:

well all be at stonleigh if you want to meet ??

you can put us straight then

Read it in context and deny it then.

Marki said he didn't like their hero. He was threatened by them and they (stigs mates) got him banned for 'trolling'

Disgraceful.

Let the conspiracy theories flood in.

Seriously though, if you read those they could equally be read in the context that he's a keyboard warrior and they want to meet him in real life to see if he's really that pointlessly offensive over everything.

[Kermit power]

Silent1 said:

El stovey said:

Stig said:

Come on - that's hardly a threat is it and I believe splatspeed made it with tongue firmly in cheek - even marki took it with good humour.

Whilst I can appreciate your frustration that one of your friends got banned, as was said on the other thread, it was the last in a succession of transgressions and marki had had fair warning.

Let's just leave it at that.

There are other thinly veiled threats where posters 'invite' him to a meet.

highflyer said:

Yo Marki, are you planning on attending any car show's over in the UK this year ?

Edited by highflyer on Tuesday 4th March 18:58

and

highflyer said:

well marki are you attending any of the car show's over here or not?

or

SplatSpeed said:

sthotfast said:

oh dear... I thought I had logged on to an Ultima discussion website... In fact I seemed to have logged on to

Chavs-want-a-punchup.com ... my mistake.....

it's ok paul ill hold your coat while you give him a damn good thrashing

SplatSpeed said:

well all be at stonleigh if you want to meet ??

you can put us straight then

Read it in context and deny it then.

Marki said he didn't like their hero. He was threatened by them and they (stigs mates) got him banned for 'trolling'

Disgraceful.

Let the conspiracy theories flood in.

Seriously though, if you read those they could equally be read in the context that he's a keyboard warrior and they want to meet him in real life to see if he's really that pointlessly offensive over everything.

Possibly, but rather a stretch, no?

OK, maybe Marki should've had the decency to step back from the debate, but I don't think you can read those comments as anything other than directly threatening.

Marki might indeed be indulging in a bit of keyboard combat, and so, equally, may highflyer and SplatSpeed, but whether it was intended seriously or not - and there are no smileys or associated humour that would leave a neutral bystander believing they weren't serious - you cannot get away from the fact that whilst Marki was just being something of a provocative arse, the other left a very clear undertone that Marki would not be welcome at any PH events, and if he did turn up, he faced a direct confrontation.

Only highflyer and SplatSpeed can know whether they would have followed through on their threats given the opportunity, but the fact remains that those posts were, imho, clearly threatening from the standpoint of a neutral party, means that they fairly seriously contravened PH's posting policies. Regardless of whether or not you feel Marki bought the threats on himself for his deliberate provocation in that thread, the fact remains that no action has been taken against people for clearly contravening those regs. To see how this policy maybe should've been applied, watch a bit of rugby. If someone swings a punch in retaliation, more often than not, they'll find themselves sat in the sin bin along with the original transgressor. The fact of the original offence shouldn't allow retaliation to go unchecked, but in this particular instance, that seems to be exactly what has happened.


Result? More people getting frustrated with what they perceive to be biased, inconsistent moderating, and the job of the overwhelming majority of excellent PH mods made that little bit harder.

[900T-R]

Kermit Power said:

sense

I see it this way - insert "Mary whatsherface from BRAKE" for "Marki" in this thread. Would PH run a risk of being faced with legal action based on the comments directed at her? Based on prior experience, you can probably answer that question for yourselves.

Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 6th March 07:28

[SplatSpeed]

i am surprised you are not accusing sthotfast trying to "bust a cap in his arse"