Servicing at Indy - will it affect the residuals of the car

[Bikeracer1098]

Looking at purchasing a 2012 4C.

Any idea of the impact if any on residuals of thr Car if I keep it for a few years and get it serviced at Thornley Motorsport or Backdraft instead on McLaren main dealer?

Thanks

[PompeyReece]

Considering they are one of the first indies to service McLarens, I'd say it's nearly impossible to answer accurately as there's no data to back it up.

There might be a hit as its an indie but how much, who knows?

[CTE]

I've got a 12c that I`ve owned for about 3.5 years and its always been serviced by McLaren Birmingham...but I think from now on its going to Thorney given values have dropped, and I think there are some areas they will do better. If the cars were some sort of special collectors pieces then I`d be inclined to stick with McLaren, but they are not and provided you can demonstrate the car has been maintained correctly and any issues fixed, then it won`t make much difference.
I do not think values are going up anytime soon (for any of the cars), or at least for a long time...think 10/20 years so why pay over the odds for servicing....unless you are considering p/x`ing the car for a later model, but you`ll still get shafted by the dealer.
I`ve decided to keep my car given it is fundamentally the same under the skin as all the newer cars...if residuals were stronger then I`d probably change it for an LT car.


As for a lack of Indy`s...it`s not McLarens job to set them up, but they are making a massive mistake in not supporting the few there are correctly...under EU law they are supposed to supply full service information etc...the lack of Indy`s is one of the keys to faster depreciation than the immediate rivals which has a knock on effect with new car sales. I wonder if they are not too bothered about selling a couple of hundred new cars per year in the UK and only really interested in selling the newest latest and greatest next thing (and highest value) to Arab/Chinese billionaire playboys?

[The Surveyor]

CTE said:

I've got a 12c that I`ve owned for about 3.5 years and its always been serviced by McLaren Birmingham...but I think from now on its going to Thorney given values have dropped, and I think there are some areas they will do better. If the cars were some sort of special collectors pieces then I`d be inclined to stick with McLaren, but they are not and provided you can demonstrate the car has been maintained correctly and any issues fixed, then it won`t make much difference.
I do not think values are going up anytime soon (for any of the cars), or at least for a long time...think 10/20 years so why pay over the odds for servicing....unless you are considering p/x`ing the car for a later model, but you`ll still get shafted by the dealer.
I`ve decided to keep my car given it is fundamentally the same under the skin as all the newer cars...if residuals were stronger then I`d probably change it for an LT car.


As for a lack of Indy`s...it`s not McLarens job to set them up, but they are making a massive mistake in not supporting the few there are correctly...under EU law they are supposed to supply full service information etc...the lack of Indy`s is one of the keys to faster depreciation than the immediate rivals which has a knock on effect with new car sales. I wonder if they are not too bothered about selling a couple of hundred new cars per year in the UK and only really interested in selling the newest latest and greatest next thing (and highest value) to Arab/Chinese billionaire playboys?

I would totally agree that the use of a respected Indy won't really have any significant impact on the future values, there are other factors having a much greater impact on the values IMHO.

I'm less convinced that the lack of support of those Indy garages is having much impact on the values though. McLaren (for whatever reason) has attracted far more negativity than any other marque which has allowed the tails of unreliability, poor quality, and poor dealer service support to grow well beyond the reality, that along with a general over-supply are the key reasons that depreciation is in line with Aston Martin, Bentley and Lamborghini rather than Ferrari and the Porsche GT cars. Saving a few £100 on a service when buying a £100k plus car matters very little IMHO.

[Bikeracer1098]

Thanks guys

[petop]

Coming from a Aston perspective, whilst its nice to have a full set of Aston stamps, no one who knows these cars (and the same for Mclaren) would be bothered if Bamford Rose, McGurk's or DAE stamps appeared a few years after it was new. Thorney are well respected so it would not bother me if i saw a stamp on car i was looking at.

[davek_964]

Seen similar discussions in the Ferrari world. There are always a few people who insist that main dealer stamps increase value, and they would only ever buy a car with entirely main dealer servicing.

In my opinion (and reality) - there will always be some of those guys around, which potentially means you're reducing the buying pool slightly by going for indy servicing - but I reckon you've still got > 90% left. (As long as you use recognised indy's, and not Freds bargain car servicing).

[12pack]

Trouble is - apart from selling to someone you know - I wouldn't have the energy to do a private sale for this type of car. Attracts too many "test drivers". That means I have sell/part ex to the trade. They love to any excuse knock down a valuation - such as on the basis of not having official dealer stamps in the service book.

[davek_964]

12pack said:

Trouble is - apart from selling to someone you know - I wouldn't have the energy to do a private sale for this type of car. Attracts too many "test drivers". That means I have sell/part ex to the trade. They love to any excuse knock down a valuation - such as on the basis of not having official dealer stamps in the service book.

Admittedly it was somewhat cheaper than a McLaren, but I sold a Ferrari 348 privately a few years back without too many issues like that. If I decided to sell my 360, I'd certainly try privately first - and whilst that is cheaper than an old 12C, the gap is getting smaller!

[isaldiri]

Well.... even on Porsche with a very well established set of 'known' independents who probably do a considerably better job than the OPC, first thing anyone looks for is 'full OPC servicing'. Being realistic, I think taking it out of the main dealer network will inevitably impact both the price and number of people willing to buy such a car especially if selling to trade (and it's really hard to sell a Mclaren privately I've found). To state it will not have an impact on the price imo flies in the face of just about any comparable case you can think of.

[bordseye]

The Surveyor said:

Saving a few £100 on a service when buying a £100k plus car matters very little IMHO.

But the early cars are now well below £100k and still falling. Someone who buys at say 70/80k isnt going to be amused by annual bills for servicing and the occasional repair in the thousands, plus the £5k guarantee bill. Buying a Ferrari at that price, there are lots of indies available to service at reasonable costs and even main dealers usually have a special rate for the older cars.

[andrew]

indy servicing gives the manufacturer;s dealers an excuse not to buy/px your car
not really what you need in an illiquid market

[davek_964]

isaldiri said:

Well.... even on Porsche with a very well established set of 'known' independents who probably do a considerably better job than the OPC, first thing anyone looks for is 'full OPC servicing'. Being realistic, I think taking it out of the main dealer network will inevitably impact both the price and number of people willing to buy such a car especially if selling to trade (and it's really hard to sell a Mclaren privately I've found). To state it will not have an impact on the price imo flies in the face of just about any comparable case you can think of.

Having sold the 348 and a 911 turbo in recent years, both with several years of indy servicing - it made zero difference. Nobody questioned the servicing at all.

As I said in my original post - there are people that it's important to, so you do reduce your pool a bit. But I don't think (and in my experience) it doesn't make a massive difference. Perhaps it will for McLaren?

[isaldiri]

davek_964 said:

Having sold the 348 and a 911 turbo in recent years, both with several years of indy servicing - it made zero difference. Nobody questioned the servicing at all.

As I said in my original post - there are people that it's important to, so you do reduce your pool a bit. But I don't think (and in my experience) it doesn't make a massive difference. Perhaps it will for McLaren?

What era turbo? A 348 is a rather old car, it's not really directly comparable imo. Would another 'modern' Ferrari/Porsche GT car say in the last 6-7 years really not be affected by non 'official' servicing? Perhaps not if you are prepared to wait for a private buyer but I'd be pretty certain it would to sell to a dealer. It's hard enough to sell a Mclaren ime - going the indy route will just make it harder. For the I don't know a grand or whatever per year for the official annual service I think getting the damned official stamp is worth it just for the lack of hassle later. By all means do all other maintenance elsewhere obviously.

Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 31st January 09:49

[The Surveyor]

bordseye said:

The Surveyor said:

Saving a few £100 on a service when buying a £100k plus car matters very little IMHO.

But the early cars are now well below £100k and still falling. Someone who buys at say 70/80k isnt going to be amused by annual bills for servicing and the occasional repair in the thousands, plus the £5k guarantee bill. Buying a Ferrari at that price, there are lots of indies available to service at reasonable costs and even main dealers usually have a special rate for the older cars.

Servicing costs is a given and should be budgeted for by anybody buying anything with a wheel at each corner, that's why its more important to me to see a continuous history whether that be dealer or Indy, rather than a history with gaps in it even on cars which do zero miles per year.

Regardless of servicing, anybody spending £80,000 on a supercar, be that a 5 year old McLaren or a 10 year old Ferrari should be very prepared for maintenance surprises which cost many many thousands. That an Indy may charge you 10 / 15% less to put right such surprises is just minor mitigation IMHO.

And for clarity, any extended warranty (it is NOT a guarantee BTW) will not cover everything, if your car needs new ceramic brake disks and pads at each corner you better be sitting down when the Indy or dealer calls you, ditto with a clutch, a front-end stone-chip respray, or a full set of P Zero's etc £££££.

[davek_964]

isaldiri said:

davek_964 said:

Having sold the 348 and a 911 turbo in recent years, both with several years of indy servicing - it made zero difference. Nobody questioned the servicing at all.

As I said in my original post - there are people that it's important to, so you do reduce your pool a bit. But I don't think (and in my experience) it doesn't make a massive difference. Perhaps it will for McLaren?

What era turbo? A 348 is a rather old car, it's not really directly comparable imo. Would another 'modern' Ferrari/Porsche GT car say in the last 6-7 years really not be affected by non 'official' servicing? Perhaps not if you are prepared to wait for a private buyer but I'd be pretty certain it would to sell to a dealer. It's hard enough to sell a Mclaren ime - going the indy route will just make it harder. For the I don't know a grand or whatever per year for the official annual service I think getting the damned official stamp is worth it just for the lack of hassle later. By all means do all other maintenance elsewhere obviously.

Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 31st January 09:49

It was a 996 turbo, so still > 10 years.

Maybe age is more relevant than value? I considered selling my 360 a year or so back - obviously an old car, but still a ~£60k car - and the dealer I spoke to had no issues with the service history.

Personally, I couldn't care less if a car has FMDSH as long as there is a proven history of it being looked after at somewhere with a decent reputation. And in fact, I for one would not pay any premium at all for FMDSH. But maybe I'm the minority.

[bordseye]

isaldiri said:

What era turbo? A 348 is a rather old car, it's not really directly comparable imo. Would another 'modern' Ferrari/Porsche GT car say in the last 6-7 years really not be affected by non 'official' servicing? Perhaps not if you are prepared to wait for a private buyer but I'd be pretty certain it would to sell to a dealer. It's hard enough to sell a Mclaren ime - going the indy route will just make it harder. For the I don't know a grand or whatever per year for the official annual service I think getting the damned official stamp is worth it just for the lack of hassle later. By all means do all other maintenance elsewhere obviously.

Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 31st January 09:49

A modern Ferrari gets 7 years free service anyway, though it doesnt amount to much more than a quick check and an oil change. But in my experience, indie servicing doesnt faze Ferrari dealers but service gaps do do. The issue dooesnt arise 10 years after build because they arent much interested in older cars until you get to the 60s and £xxx,xxx.

The other issue of course is dealing with guarantee claims outside the guarantee. In that case you need a dealer fighting your corner and that in turn means you have to do business with the dealer.

[bordseye]

The Surveyor said:

Servicing costs is a given and should be budgeted for by anybody buying anything with a wheel at each corner, that's why its more important to me to see a continuous history whether that be dealer or Indy, rather than a history with gaps in it even on cars which do zero miles per year.

Regardless of servicing, anybody spending £80,000 on a supercar, be that a 5 year old McLaren or a 10 year old Ferrari should be very prepared for maintenance surprises which cost many many thousands. That an Indy may charge you 10 / 15% less to put right such surprises is just minor mitigation IMHO.

And for clarity, any extended warranty (it is NOT a guarantee BTW) will not cover everything, if your car needs new ceramic brake disks and pads at each corner you better be sitting down when the Indy or dealer calls you, ditto with a clutch, a front-end stone-chip respray, or a full set of P Zero's etc £££££.

Thats not realistic. If you are in business making cars you have an interest in their second hand value, and that in turn depends on how much they cost to run. Its why ferrari dealers often have a much cheaper labour rate for the older cars not to mention discounts on part prices. Add in indies and its quite feasible to run even an early 2000s Ferrari with service bills below £1000pa.

At 7 years old the cheapest McLaren in Autotrader is now 80k. BY the time it reaches 10 years old it will be more like 50k. If no one can make sense of the running costs at that age, if they still need to put away maybe 8 k inc guarantee, then likely it wont even be worth that. Anyone for 30k?

Not every enthusiast has pockets as deep as yours!

[isaldiri]

bordseye said:

Thats not realistic. If you are in business making cars you have an interest in their second hand value, and that in turn depends on how much they cost to run. Its why ferrari dealers often have a much cheaper labour rate for the older cars not to mention discounts on part prices. Add in indies and its quite feasible to run even an early 2000s Ferrari with service bills below £1000pa.

At 7 years old the cheapest McLaren in Autotrader is now 80k. BY the time it reaches 10 years old it will be more like 50k. If no one can make sense of the running costs at that age, if they still need to put away maybe 8 k inc guarantee, then likely it wont even be worth that. Anyone for 30k?

Not every enthusiast has pockets as deep as yours!

I don't mean to sound like a prat here but tbh bordseye you seem to be exceptionally focused on costs wrt to the Mclaren (any). Perhaps the car(s) simply aren't for you as you seemingly want to a) run the car without much/any depreciation for a while and b) not have any significant maintenance costs on the car (for a 12c potentially 6+ years and getting to the age stuff breaks or ages to the point it needs replacing) while not wanting to be paying for the warranty. There's no point in owning a car if you're going to be that worried about it, there are other extremly capable cars around for less cost both actual and potential - Ferrari as you point out yourself.

For a low-ish volume production car that starts life as a £170+k car, the parts and maintenance are always going to cost a fair amount even if Mclaren were actually focused on trying to do the right thing for the used car network rather than trying to maximise every ounce of profit they can. The surveyor is imo being entirely realistic and reasonable in pointing out that one should be prepared for a not insignificant bill wrt to one of the cars.

it is of course entirely possible to buy a car at the right time and get out before having to maintain it to a significant degree but that's a gamble. Do you feel lucky...?

[The Surveyor]

bordseye said:

Thats not realistic. If you are in business making cars you have an interest in their second hand value, and that in turn depends on how much they cost to run. Its why ferrari dealers often have a much cheaper labour rate for the older cars not to mention discounts on part prices. Add in indies and its quite feasible to run even an early 2000s Ferrari with service bills below £1000pa.

At 7 years old the cheapest McLaren in Autotrader is now 80k. BY the time it reaches 10 years old it will be more like 50k. If no one can make sense of the running costs at that age, if they still need to put away maybe 8 k inc guarantee, then likely it wont even be worth that. Anyone for 30k?

Not every enthusiast has pockets as deep as yours!

No words....