New EVs getting cheaper?
Discussion
Yes but it's still another 3-4 years before they are about the same price (MG and some PCP deals are close though).
There is also the possibility manufacturers will start to dump ICE cars at even lower prices in the transition to EVs which will make it take even longer.
On the flip side some EVs are technically cheaper now with things like the BIK rate and running costs.
Still a few years to go through until EVs are all round cheaper than new ICE cars without debate.
There is also the possibility manufacturers will start to dump ICE cars at even lower prices in the transition to EVs which will make it take even longer.
On the flip side some EVs are technically cheaper now with things like the BIK rate and running costs.
Still a few years to go through until EVs are all round cheaper than new ICE cars without debate.
It's "been coming down" for years. It's still some way off parity (although of course the lower running costs go some way to counter that).
I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range. You could argue that it's still a lot more than its petrol counterparts, but they've countered that to an extent by giving it a much higher spec both in terms of performance and kit. It certainly felt on a par with something like an Astra which is similarly priced in diesel form.
I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range. You could argue that it's still a lot more than its petrol counterparts, but they've countered that to an extent by giving it a much higher spec both in terms of performance and kit. It certainly felt on a par with something like an Astra which is similarly priced in diesel form.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 8th February 14:38
kambites said:
It's "been coming down" for years. It's still some way off parity (although of course the lower running costs go some way to counter that).
I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range.
But it does seem you get what you pay for though, even with access to 350KW chargers it takes over 15hrs to cover 1000km, some 5hr longer than a Tesla Model 3.I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range.
Alot of the issues appear to be software related, it seems many manufacturers are struggling to get their EV charging/drivetrain software sorted.
https://youtu.be/wK4AKGg3s-8
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 8th February 15:51
gangzoom said:
kambites said:
It's "been coming down" for years. It's still some way off parity (although of course the lower running costs go some way to counter that).
I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range.
But it does seem you get what you pay for though, even with access to 350KW chargers it takes over 15hrs to cover 1000km, some 5hr longer than a Tesla Model 3.I recently looked at an MG ZS EV, which starts at about £22k which is pretty respectable for decent sized family car with a 160 mile WLTP range.
Alot of the issues appear to be software related, it seems many manufacturers are struggling to get their EV charging/drivetrain software sorted.
https://youtu.be/wK4AKGg3s-8
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 8th February 15:51
I mean, what % of the population look to drive 1000km. I've been driving 25 years and never, not once, have I done a road trip of that length.
There is an argument for what you are saying, if its in the context of drivers who need a car for long journeys all the time, but for everyone else.....
dhutch said:
New big test is to see what they do about old batteries, reuse, reprocessing, etc.
they are 99% recyclable and can be turned into new batteries, total life should be 25-30 years with battery storage being the most prominent use after the 300-500k miles they should avg in a carIt’s been getting closer for a while.
What will tip it further is the small simple cheap cars getting more expensive. They’re all above the fleet average CO2 target because of older and low-tech engines so manufacturers will either drop them, raise prices (to cover the fine incurred) or have to fit hybrid tech (also raising the price).
Lots of the cheapest/smallest models in manufacturer ranges just aren’t having direct replacements developed because they won’t be commercially viable by then. Existing stuff will go on for as long as it makes sense to.
What will tip it further is the small simple cheap cars getting more expensive. They’re all above the fleet average CO2 target because of older and low-tech engines so manufacturers will either drop them, raise prices (to cover the fine incurred) or have to fit hybrid tech (also raising the price).
Lots of the cheapest/smallest models in manufacturer ranges just aren’t having direct replacements developed because they won’t be commercially viable by then. Existing stuff will go on for as long as it makes sense to.
jjwilde said:
I expect Tesla will eventually build that small car they keep talking about but can you imagine the demand for it?
By the time Tesla get into it, the family EV market place is going to be pretty crowded by vehicles from companies with economies of scale Tesla can only dream of at the moment. It'll be interesting to see how they do when they go directly up against the established car makers. kambites said:
By the time Tesla get into it, the family EV market place is going to be pretty crowded by vehicles from companies with economies of scale Tesla can only dream of at the moment. It'll be interesting to see how they do when they go directly up against the established car makers.
It will be years till Tesla get th the family car value areaSub£22k
soupdragon1 said:
What's that got to do with the price of milk?
Its got to do with everything, two things people seem obsessed with for EVs, is more range and worries tech been outdated.Interestingly on the same test route, access to loads of rapid chargers the newer EVs certainly aren't demonstrating massive leaps in tech or charging speed. Infact for the Ioniq it was the opposite the newer car with a bigger battery was slower, and a 6 year old Model S still matches a brand new Merc/Audi.
The Porsche Taycan I think will be much quicker for charging/long trips based on some real world data coming through, but its hardly a cheap car.
Yes EVs are getting cheaper, but not necessarily better. Oh the eUp the OP was mentioning has in effect the same battery as the eGolf, so will be pretty much dead last on a 1000km road trip.
A £30k used Tesla is still a better than a brand new £30k EV for anyone else, even with all of the issues know to some of the used 85s.
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 9th February 14:03
Why spend £50k on something you don't need?
You still missed the point. Not everyone needs big range. Someone with a 60 mile daily commute, knocking out 18k pa, can buy a 20 grand EV and it'll do them nicely.
For those with bigger requirements, they'll need a bigger battery and more expensive EV.
Not sure why you keep talking about which cars can do 1000km the fastest...its off topic.
You still missed the point. Not everyone needs big range. Someone with a 60 mile daily commute, knocking out 18k pa, can buy a 20 grand EV and it'll do them nicely.
For those with bigger requirements, they'll need a bigger battery and more expensive EV.
Not sure why you keep talking about which cars can do 1000km the fastest...its off topic.
soupdragon1 said:
You still missed the point. Not everyone needs big range. Someone with a 60 mile daily commute, knocking out 18k pa, can buy a 20 grand EV and it'll do them nicely.
If you only need to do 60 miles a day why would you waste £20k on a new eUP, when a £8k used Nissan Leaf will do the same job?soupdragon1 said:
Not sure why you keep talking about which cars can do 1000km the fastest...its off topic.
The reason the 1000km challenge data is helpful because on this forum when EVs purchases are considered people always end up wanting to know how they manage long distances.The answer is with a good Rapid charging network even something like an eUp will do it fine, but just because its an EV made in 2020 don't automatically expect it to do it better than one made in 2012.
If you are in market for a £20k EV it probably better to wait for a used Model S to hit the sub £25k pricepoint rather than buy a new £20k eUp, so even better if you really don't need the range buy a £8k used Leaf and pocket £12k change.
I too don’t get this obsession with the 1000km Range test. Yes - it’s somewhat interesting, but doesn’t really reflect real world use.
There seems to be a big obsession with range of EV’s when in the real world as long as it covers most of your driving it doesn’t really matter.
Additionally (with the exception of Tesla) the UK charging network is a bloody nightmare requiring multiple apps and cards and even then you have a 50/50 chance of being able to use the charger as it’ll likely be broken, in use or blocked by an ICE. So even if I had a Taycan I wouldn’t fancy doing 1000km
There seems to be a big obsession with range of EV’s when in the real world as long as it covers most of your driving it doesn’t really matter.
Additionally (with the exception of Tesla) the UK charging network is a bloody nightmare requiring multiple apps and cards and even then you have a 50/50 chance of being able to use the charger as it’ll likely be broken, in use or blocked by an ICE. So even if I had a Taycan I wouldn’t fancy doing 1000km
Problem is there has been zero progress on increasing Lithium ion energy density in the last 10 years, that despite enormous investment in exactly that issue. Every 18 months or so I read about some huge battery step forward (fast charging graphene batteries etc etc) but none of these seem to have hit the market yet and most seem to be around charging speed rather than energy density. Really the industry is going to struggle to really break through to the real mass market without some such technology leap.
I wonder if the fast ramp-up in BEVs will cause short term problems in the supply of the raw materials needed for the batteries. If so, the cost might not drop as fast as it should. It takes time to permit and develop a new lithium, cobalt or copper mine. I note that The Times reports today that Jaguar is experiencing some battery supply problems from LG Chem, although it fails to reveal the cause of the battery shortage. It might have nothing to do with a shortage of raw materials, of course.
Throttle Body said:
I wonder if the fast ramp-up in BEVs will cause short term problems in the supply of the raw materials needed for the batteries.
Oh hell yes, ramping up raw materials for the switch to EVs will be about the biggest and fastest switch on resources we've had.At the moment cost of them is falling even as demand increases but we'll have to see.
Phunk said:
I too don’t get this obsession with the 1000km Range test. Yes - it’s somewhat interesting, but doesn’t really reflect real world use.
There seems to be a big obsession with range of EV’s when in the real world as long as it covers most of your driving it doesn’t really matter.
Additionally (with the exception of Tesla) the UK charging network is a bloody nightmare requiring multiple apps and cards and even then you have a 50/50 chance of being able to use the charger as it’ll likely be broken, in use or blocked by an ICE. So even if I had a Taycan I wouldn’t fancy doing 1000km
They should stop worrying about battery capacity and charging networks IMO and start developing a series of standard battery units that can be easily replaced in the car....and then get the oil companies to start rolling out battery replacement stations. There seems to be a big obsession with range of EV’s when in the real world as long as it covers most of your driving it doesn’t really matter.
Additionally (with the exception of Tesla) the UK charging network is a bloody nightmare requiring multiple apps and cards and even then you have a 50/50 chance of being able to use the charger as it’ll likely be broken, in use or blocked by an ICE. So even if I had a Taycan I wouldn’t fancy doing 1000km
You drive in, you pay whatever & your battery gets changed - probably by some automated bit of kit that releases it from the bottom of the vehicle & shoves a fully charged one in & you drive out again. The battery that gets taken out gets stuffed in a charging rack & recharged ready to be installed in someone else's vehicle an hour or so later.
Batteries get tested as they get charged, duff ones that aren't holding a charge get withdrawn from service. Every time an EV gets sold a new battery enters the system. The oil companies (or whoever is running the battery swapping stations) also buys a stock of new batteries to start things off & to replace any that get withdrawn.
If governments spent some time mandating the standardisation of the batteries into maybe 2 or 3 different sizes (capacities?) or shapes of units that would allow that, then we might actually get somewhere with EVs.
People that lived in flats in cities or houses with no off street parking would then have the means to manage and run an EV. People with the ability to charge at home or work could also still do that as well.
Demand for EV's goes up, prices come down.
Instead of which we have politicians worrying about rolling out a charging network that would be hugely disruptive & expensive to do (and who is paying for it?). People who don't have OS parking are still going to be reliant on public charge points and everyone is whinging about whether or not current subsidies on EV's are going to be withdrawn or not. Couldn't make it up!
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