Hybrids: Plugin vs 'normal' recharging efficiency
Discussion
I don't really know where to start with looking for the answer to this question, so this is more of a braindump...
We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
C70R said:
I don't really know where to start with looking for the answer to this question, so this is more of a braindump...
We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
The only reason you see a full battery after an hour on the motorway is because you're using the engine as a generator to charge it, which effects fuel/mpg etc. We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
I ran a volvo twin engine as a 'posh prius' for 3 years, gave up on charging it and it worked great in town and always helped with getting the weight of the car moving. The 225xe should be the same.
jason61c said:
C70R said:
I don't really know where to start with looking for the answer to this question, so this is more of a braindump...
We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
The only reason you see a full battery after an hour on the motorway is because you're using the engine as a generator to charge it, which effects fuel/mpg etc. We currently run a 225xe, but due to a change in circumstances and less access to regular charging we have been considering a shift to a non-plugin (potentially RAV4).
I guess what I was trying to get my head around (unsuccessfully) is how efficient the two types of hybrids are at recovering energy to recharge. An hour or so on on the motorway will see my with a full battery in the BMW, and I was wondering whether this would be more efficient in a non-plugin? By contrast, I don't find the BMW to be great at recovering energy in urban driving, but I guess that could be true of both.
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
For context, I'm not really that interested in 'fuel' economy. I'm more interested in being able to access as much electrical power as possible for the urban/town driving we do (although that might equate to the same thing).
Hopefully some of that made enough sense...
I ran a volvo twin engine as a 'posh prius' for 3 years, gave up on charging it and it worked great in town and always helped with getting the weight of the car moving. The 225xe should be the same.
Your description of the Volvo sounds similar, but I'm just wondering if a non-plugin would be more efficient at recovering energy in town.
littleredrooster said:
Bear in mind that a RAV4 will not go very far, or very fast on battery power. The electric is used to help disguise the lack of torque from the Atkinson-cycle engine similar to all Toyota/Lexus hybrids.
Even the 4wd models, where the battery runs the rear wheels?C70R said:
Sorry, I should have been clearer. It's fully charged because I set the hybrid system to maximum charging on motorway runs. This means that I get loads of battery power on either end of the journey.
Your description of the Volvo sounds similar, but I'm just wondering if a non-plugin would be more efficient at recovering energy in town.
No, I doubt it.Your description of the Volvo sounds similar, but I'm just wondering if a non-plugin would be more efficient at recovering energy in town.
you're wasting fuel/engergy by usign the onboard generator on the motorway.
jason61c said:
C70R said:
Sorry, I should have been clearer. It's fully charged because I set the hybrid system to maximum charging on motorway runs. This means that I get loads of battery power on either end of the journey.
Your description of the Volvo sounds similar, but I'm just wondering if a non-plugin would be more efficient at recovering energy in town.
No, I doubt it.Your description of the Volvo sounds similar, but I'm just wondering if a non-plugin would be more efficient at recovering energy in town.
you're wasting fuel/engergy by usign the onboard generator on the motorway.
dmsims said:
If you are wanting maximum EV city driving a hybrid is not the answer, they have tiny (comparatively) batteries
Not necessarily. When I had my 2016 Prius (new shape), in summer time, my trips from the suburbs into London, would often show 70-75% of the journey done using the battery. Yes, they have tiny batteries in the scheme of things, but they are very well sorted in terms of efficiency as a hybrid in selected situations especially when you encounter traffic in the city. C70R said:
Or, is it more the case that both types recover energy equally well, and the plugin gives an additional charging option?
All things being equal, they both recover energy equally as well. Although a plug-in means that the battery isn’t reliant upon the engine, or regeneration to charge it. In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th July 05:38
dvs_dave said:
All things being equal, they both recover energy equally as well. Although a plug-in means that the battery isn’t reliant upon the engine, or regeneration to charge it.
In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Whilst your conclusion is correct, don't forget that a significant part of regeneration comes from braking in both cases, too. Of course the car has to be propelled by fuel before braking regen can take place...In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th July 05:38
Non-plug-in hybrid is even more pointless than a plug in hybrid.
Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
TooLateForAName said:
Non-plug-in hybrid is even more pointless than a plug in hybrid.
Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
What about energy recovery from braking?Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
TooLateForAName said:
Non-plug-in hybrid is even more pointless than a plug in hybrid.
Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
As mentioned before Toyota/Lexus hybrid systems are there to allow the Atkinson cycle, hence achieve near diesel levels of efficiency but by using electric motors to disguise the lack of torque.Instead of using a fairly efficient national electricity supply to charge your tiny battery, you are using your car engine to charge the tiny battery.
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
They aren't really EVs or hybrids, more very very efficient petrol cars. Our current Lexus IS300H is MORE efficient mpg than our old diesel Civic. Add in no need to worry about DPF, Ad blue, turbos etc you can see why mini cab drivers love them.
Using braking energy to charge the battery also reduces brake wear and helps with improve overall efficiency.
littleredrooster said:
dvs_dave said:
All things being equal, they both recover energy equally as well. Although a plug-in means that the battery isn’t reliant upon the engine, or regeneration to charge it.
In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Whilst your conclusion is correct, don't forget that a significant part of regeneration comes from braking in both cases, too. Of course the car has to be propelled by fuel before braking regen can take place...In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th July 05:38
In a HEV all that energy comes from the fuel burned by the engine. In a PHEV it all comes from a combo of the fuel burned, and the electricity from the national grid used to charge the onboard battery.
As a result a PHEV has a greater onboard energy storage capability than a HEV, so all things being equal a PHEV will use less fuel than a HEV. It’s all about the conservation of energy.
A PHEV is exactly the same tech as a HEV, just with the addition of an onboard “plug-in” charger for the hybrid battery pack.
dvs_dave said:
littleredrooster said:
dvs_dave said:
All things being equal, they both recover energy equally as well. Although a plug-in means that the battery isn’t reliant upon the engine, or regeneration to charge it.
In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Whilst your conclusion is correct, don't forget that a significant part of regeneration comes from braking in both cases, too. Of course the car has to be propelled by fuel before braking regen can take place...In a HEV, all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from the fuel. In a PHEV all the energy to propel the vehicle and charge the battery comes from a combination of the fuel, and the mains electricity used to charge the battery.
So all things bring equal a PHEV will use less fuel because a portion of the energy it needs comes from the already charged up battery.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th July 05:38
There's a more subtle, technical reason behind the Toyota/Lexus system too.
As well as regen from braking, it also means the ICE can be more efficient; a petrol engine is only fuel-efficient when is isn't running on part-throttle - i.e. under load with a wide open throttle and maximum cylinder-filling. The hybrid system ensures that when the petrol engine is needed, it runs under load with the excess energy being diverted to the batteries. As soon as the load is reduced, the petrol engine turns off and either coasts on electric or does some regen from the slowing-down process. Rinse and repeat.
In practice, this can translate to (IMO) astonishing mpg figures. Without thinking about it, or consciously trying, our Prius achieved 94mpg on a 70 mile wander around the Norfolk broads last year at main-road speeds. Tootling down through the more-congested Cotswolds recently it was over 100mpg for 20-odd miles. Overall average after 20,000 miles is ~72mpg, lots of that on M'ways where it is less suited.
As well as regen from braking, it also means the ICE can be more efficient; a petrol engine is only fuel-efficient when is isn't running on part-throttle - i.e. under load with a wide open throttle and maximum cylinder-filling. The hybrid system ensures that when the petrol engine is needed, it runs under load with the excess energy being diverted to the batteries. As soon as the load is reduced, the petrol engine turns off and either coasts on electric or does some regen from the slowing-down process. Rinse and repeat.
In practice, this can translate to (IMO) astonishing mpg figures. Without thinking about it, or consciously trying, our Prius achieved 94mpg on a 70 mile wander around the Norfolk broads last year at main-road speeds. Tootling down through the more-congested Cotswolds recently it was over 100mpg for 20-odd miles. Overall average after 20,000 miles is ~72mpg, lots of that on M'ways where it is less suited.
This. It is also why they can sound so ‘harsh’, the ICE is either at full throttle or coasting.
Our Corolla hybrid can only do a smidgen over a mile on battery only, but that isn’t the point of the electric system. It is uses 1/3rd less fuel than petrol only (sister in law has the petrol only version, and does almost exactly the same driving, so easy to compare).
Our Corolla hybrid can only do a smidgen over a mile on battery only, but that isn’t the point of the electric system. It is uses 1/3rd less fuel than petrol only (sister in law has the petrol only version, and does almost exactly the same driving, so easy to compare).
TooLateForAName said:
The only reason I can see for a hybrid is to give a short distance drive without local pollution.
That's 90% of the reason I own mine. The other 10% being that it's quite cool to bring up at the pub.In all seriousness, zero emission driving in London (where I live) is the most important factor here.
It's sounding more and more like another plugin will be the answer.
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 14th July 17:27
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