What if...FSD is not released before end of lease
Discussion
Went to Brum in our MX P100D today and along the way, colleague and myself mused is it a possibility that our 4 year commitment to this car will end before FSD is available (in UK). Think we paid c£5k for the FSD option in 2019.
If so, I assume we retain some additional value in the used price of the car but what would it mean to those that have leased their car and selected FSD. The lease company will benefit (as they have a car with FSD to resell) but the first customer will have paid for the benefit but never got to use it.
Is this a valid point or the ramblings of a mad man?
If so, I assume we retain some additional value in the used price of the car but what would it mean to those that have leased their car and selected FSD. The lease company will benefit (as they have a car with FSD to resell) but the first customer will have paid for the benefit but never got to use it.
Is this a valid point or the ramblings of a mad man?
An interesting point, but I'd suggest as there was never a guarantee of when FSD would be available, and certainly not when it would pass required legislation in each country the cars are sold in in order to be legally used, adding the option was always a massive gamble especially on a short term lease?
RobDickinson said:
Honestly think your nuts leasing a tesla and adding FSD option
This. I see to remember checking and on a 3 year lease it added £100+ per month to the payments as they expected you to pay the entire cost over the term? Edited by SWoll on Thursday 3rd September 19:43
rdj001 said:
Seems to echo my thoughts. For clarity, we have purchased the MX (so we retain the car / value) but I did wonder about those who leased / PCPed
Be interested to see how much of that cost you do actually retain in comparison to a similar car without it? I suppose it's probably quite hard to tell although will make it more attractive to prospective buyers at least?RobDickinson said:
Honestly think your nuts leasing a tesla and adding FSD option
Agreed, but there does seem to be some confusion if FSD stays with the car or not. Jalopnik did have an article where it moved with the owner and I believe that there is movement to make this the case - you subscribe to the capability and get to move it to your new vehicle. But from a second hand sales model, this could be a nightmare and its a legal nightmare!It probably makes sense to have it as an account based feature - you enable it on the vehicle that you have and if you upgrade, you take the feature. Though how this actually works with the modules that are installed and if there are hardware upgrades that are needed. Who knows? Porsche seems to be going down this path - add-on features when you need them, but I feel uneasy about that. You just know something will go wrong or someone will get ripped off....
off_again said:
Agreed, but there does seem to be some confusion if FSD stays with the car or not. Jalopnik did have an article where it moved with the owner and I believe that there is movement to make this the case - you subscribe to the capability and get to move it to your new vehicle. But from a second hand sales model, this could be a nightmare and its a legal nightmare!
I think the article you are describing is this case:- 1st owner has fsd
- sold his car back to tesla
- tesla put the car up for sale without FSD (cheaper to purchase, might add it later)
- Someone bought the car from Tesla, FSD was actived by accident (probably never deactivated)
- Tesla finds out, deactivated it.
ZesPak said:
I think the article you are describing is this case:
If they are actually de-activating it on used cars in an attempt to double dip on the charges then that is a very s- 1st owner has fsd
- sold his car back to tesla
- tesla put the car up for sale without FSD (cheaper to purchase, might add it later)
- Someone bought the car from Tesla, FSD was actived by accident (probably never deactivated)
- Tesla finds out, deactivated it.
tty practice.SWoll said:
ZesPak said:
I think the article you are describing is this case:
If they are actually de-activating it on used cars in an attempt to double dip on the charges then that is a very s- 1st owner has fsd
- sold his car back to tesla
- tesla put the car up for sale without FSD (cheaper to purchase, might add it later)
- Someone bought the car from Tesla, FSD was actived by accident (probably never deactivated)
- Tesla finds out, deactivated it.
tty practice.Might not be a guarantee but Musk has repeatedly made statements that vary from promises to setting clear expectations that haven't been met
Back in early 2017
And of course he's repeated various "feature complete" and "cross country driving" claims were imminent many times since. Only last year it would be feature complete by the end of 2019 and now he's talking up another major rewrite which will blow us away in 2-4 months and that was over 2 months ago... so any day?
We can all read between the lines on such a statement and that it basically says "no idea when its really going to be ready" but not if you've only had the company of some of the more blinkered owners and read these tweets. Its not surprising people order the option if they're not familiar with his track record on the subject
It definitely stays with the car, and its not just FSD they remove on some used cars they resell, their party trick is to remove EAP and drop that down to basic AP so your 8k upgrade or whatever it costs actually gives you some fuinctionalty such as lane change and parking. But you know what you're buying when you buy, or should do.
Back in early 2017
And of course he's repeated various "feature complete" and "cross country driving" claims were imminent many times since. Only last year it would be feature complete by the end of 2019 and now he's talking up another major rewrite which will blow us away in 2-4 months and that was over 2 months ago... so any day?
We can all read between the lines on such a statement and that it basically says "no idea when its really going to be ready" but not if you've only had the company of some of the more blinkered owners and read these tweets. Its not surprising people order the option if they're not familiar with his track record on the subject
It definitely stays with the car, and its not just FSD they remove on some used cars they resell, their party trick is to remove EAP and drop that down to basic AP so your 8k upgrade or whatever it costs actually gives you some fuinctionalty such as lane change and parking. But you know what you're buying when you buy, or should do.
RobDickinson said:
If its cost neutral its not a problem but I dont agree with them doing it, no one else can
While not exactly the same, when I traded in my first bike, the dealer removed the panniers and sold them as a separate item. (easier to sell probably, more money as well). I'm sure others would do it if they could. Wasn't bmw inventing some subscription model for some of the options?
Anyway, nobody is hurting here and you get what you pay for. Vague promises of a bright future.
You should ask for a refund. FSD isn't going to be available this year, or next year. Even if they ever manage to get it working in the US it will then take years for the UK to allow it.
Musk lied. He said it would be ready in 2017 when he knew they were years away. He said robotaxi would start this year when he knew it wouldn't. You have a good case, the statements that Tesla representatives (mainly Elon Musk) made about FSD were false.
As many others in a similar position come to the end of their leases I expect we will see lawsuits starting. You could use Small Claims Court though, no need to pay a lawyer. Here is the procedure:
1. Write to Tesla requesting a refund for FSD. Give them a deadline of 1 week.
2. If they don't refund send a Letter Before Action, basically "pay up in 1 more week or see you in court".
3. If they still don't pay file with Small Claims Court, only costs £30 and they will probably settle.
4. If it goes to court it will be your local court, informal setting with just you, the judge and their rep. Use screenshots of their website and tweets by Elon Musk as evidence, judge will award you the £5k plus costs.
Musk lied. He said it would be ready in 2017 when he knew they were years away. He said robotaxi would start this year when he knew it wouldn't. You have a good case, the statements that Tesla representatives (mainly Elon Musk) made about FSD were false.
As many others in a similar position come to the end of their leases I expect we will see lawsuits starting. You could use Small Claims Court though, no need to pay a lawyer. Here is the procedure:
1. Write to Tesla requesting a refund for FSD. Give them a deadline of 1 week.
2. If they don't refund send a Letter Before Action, basically "pay up in 1 more week or see you in court".
3. If they still don't pay file with Small Claims Court, only costs £30 and they will probably settle.
4. If it goes to court it will be your local court, informal setting with just you, the judge and their rep. Use screenshots of their website and tweets by Elon Musk as evidence, judge will award you the £5k plus costs.
Good luck with that.
If you decided to tick the FSD box that was your choice with no guarantee of when it would be available. You do still get some of the functionality now which is an improvement over standard Autopilot BTW which would also weaken your case.
If it was technically working but not yet legislated as safe for use in the UK would you demand a refund from the government?
If you decided to tick the FSD box that was your choice with no guarantee of when it would be available. You do still get some of the functionality now which is an improvement over standard Autopilot BTW which would also weaken your case.
If it was technically working but not yet legislated as safe for use in the UK would you demand a refund from the government?
SWoll said:
Good luck with that.
If you decided to tick the FSD box that was your choice with no guarantee of when it would be available. You do still get some of the functionality now which is an improvement over standard Autopilot BTW which would also weaken your case.
If it was technically working but not yet legislated as safe for use in the UK would you demand a refund from the government?
What functionality was that over EAP which was the starting point for many a couple of years ago?If you decided to tick the FSD box that was your choice with no guarantee of when it would be available. You do still get some of the functionality now which is an improvement over standard Autopilot BTW which would also weaken your case.
If it was technically working but not yet legislated as safe for use in the UK would you demand a refund from the government?
I think anyone buying FSD in 2017 especially after the tweet I posted above, remembering that Muss twiitter feed has been recognised as a formal communication channel on behalf of Tesla, plus the video that Tesla posted in 2016, would have a good case that something material was going to happen in the first half of 2017, and yet here we are in the second half of 2020. I don't think full self driving in ahandsfree fashion is realistic, but certainly more than what we have now which is AP1 with a few minor changes.
The government argument is crass - the manufacturer has a duty to have things tested and authroised for sale before they sell them. Its no different from saying something exists but because it fails CE marking tests its not the manufactures fault.
An interesting debate - we're not worried about it as it is likely we will keep the car in the fleet beyond our initial expectation (4 years) and someone will get the benefit when FSD is technically possible / legal in the UK. The main purpose of my questions was to see opinions on those who had selected this option as part of a lease as it is likely that many early Model 3s will go back to the leasing company before it arrives.
And "Anyway, nobody is hurting here and you get what you pay for" - isn't that exactly the point, you may not get what you have paid for?
As for the comparison to a motorcycle dealer removing panniers from a bike before sales......many LOLs
And "Anyway, nobody is hurting here and you get what you pay for" - isn't that exactly the point, you may not get what you have paid for?
As for the comparison to a motorcycle dealer removing panniers from a bike before sales......many LOLs
Heres Johnny said:
I think anyone buying FSD in 2017 especially after the tweet I posted above, remembering that Muss twiitter feed has been recognised as a formal communication channel on behalf of Tesla, plus the video that Tesla posted in 2016, would have a good case that something material was going to happen in the first half of 2017, and yet here we are in the second half of 2020. I don't think full self driving in ahandsfree fashion is realistic, but certainly more than what we have now which is AP1 with a few minor changes.
This. The salesman, Musk in this case, said it would be demonstrated in 2017 with regulatory approval being the hold up after that. It wasn't, years later it still hasn't been and there is no sign of it happening.This has already been tested in court against Tesla too. There was a lawsuit over Autopilot's capabilities being over-sold which they lost. It wasn't too bad for them because they did eventually deliver the promised features but people got refunds for the time they were not available.
rdj001 said:
An interesting debate - we're not worried about it as it is likely we will keep the car in the fleet beyond our initial expectation (4 years) and someone will get the benefit when FSD is technically possible / legal in the UK.
It's going to be rusting on the scrapheap before it's available and legal in the UK.aestetix1 said:
There was a lawsuit over Autopilot's capabilities being over-sold which they lost. It wasn't too bad for them because they did eventually deliver the promised features but people got refunds for the time they were not available.
Owners got at most $300 back for a $2K+ initial Autopilot cost, the people that gained the most from the lawsuit were lawyers.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot...
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