Solar-powered car
Discussion
Obviously, it's being laughed at and pilloried by the usual triumphant naysayers (don't you get sick of people who, when presented with something new, seek immediately to shoot it down - if it were up to those misery-guts, we'd all still be primordial slime beside a hydrothermal vent - "Developing skeletons, you say? Terrible idea, let's stay right where we are, gloop-glooping away ..."):
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-a...
Solar panel technology has improved dramatically in the last decade and continues to improve in leaps and bounds. Next improvements in solar panels are expected to provide a 700% efficiency gain. Suddenly, range starts to look less of an issue. And it’s a myth that you need to be in a hot country for solar panels to work.
Consider this - 15 years ago, at work, I was a passenger in an early electric car. It was a 2-seater. It looked a bit like a sideways fridge mounted on a skateboard. We went for a short trip down a motorway. I ski, I used to ride motorbikes, and I have driven cars at "interesting speeds, officer" all my life. Yet this bloody thing worried me more than anything else I've ever driven. It was dog-slow. It had a "range" of about 25 miles. It felt like it was about to tip over any minute. Passing cars caused it to shake violently. I was glad to get out. At the time, I genuinely thought that electric cars were a total joke that would never amount to anything.
And a mere decade later, we have Teslas that can out-run Porsches.
In principle, the idea of potentially being freed from any charging or re-fuelling network has to be an attractive one for anyone who values personal freedom.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-a...
Solar panel technology has improved dramatically in the last decade and continues to improve in leaps and bounds. Next improvements in solar panels are expected to provide a 700% efficiency gain. Suddenly, range starts to look less of an issue. And it’s a myth that you need to be in a hot country for solar panels to work.
Consider this - 15 years ago, at work, I was a passenger in an early electric car. It was a 2-seater. It looked a bit like a sideways fridge mounted on a skateboard. We went for a short trip down a motorway. I ski, I used to ride motorbikes, and I have driven cars at "interesting speeds, officer" all my life. Yet this bloody thing worried me more than anything else I've ever driven. It was dog-slow. It had a "range" of about 25 miles. It felt like it was about to tip over any minute. Passing cars caused it to shake violently. I was glad to get out. At the time, I genuinely thought that electric cars were a total joke that would never amount to anything.
And a mere decade later, we have Teslas that can out-run Porsches.
In principle, the idea of potentially being freed from any charging or re-fuelling network has to be an attractive one for anyone who values personal freedom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNjUdTJjiNk&fe...
That was their launch video, apparently the people making it are legit, it isn't just a scam, we shall see tho.
It's sold out I believe although I think they are trying to scale it up now.
It's certainly an interesting car.
I think 40 miles from solar a day is enough for almost everyone in the UK, it would certainly end all this 'thE gRid wOnT coPe' rubbish we keep seeing.
That was their launch video, apparently the people making it are legit, it isn't just a scam, we shall see tho.
It's sold out I believe although I think they are trying to scale it up now.
It's certainly an interesting car.
I think 40 miles from solar a day is enough for almost everyone in the UK, it would certainly end all this 'thE gRid wOnT coPe' rubbish we keep seeing.
I was wondering if you could have another type of solar power in hot countries.
A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
ReverendCounter said:
I was wondering if you could have another type of solar power in hot countries.
A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
If such a system could be as efficient as photovoltaic cells, it would be used for large-scale generation. A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
For an EV, lack of space means it will be all about efficiency which strongly favours PV. Modern PV cells can be around 25% efficient which doesn't sound like much but when you think about what it means, that a quarter of the radiated energy for the sun which hits the surface gets converted into electricity, is really quite impressive.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 13th December 15:31
OverSteery said:
tommy1973s said:
...........Next improvements in solar panels are expected to provide a 700% efficiency gain........ .
Hmm, 7x more efficient? If they are about 25% efficient now, I think they hoping for a breakthrough in the laws of physics? In other words another load of
old b
ks spouted by EV promoters.. kambites said:
If such a system could be as efficient as photovoltaic cells, it would be used for large-scale generation.
Yep.Edited by kambites on Sunday 13th December 15:31
And it is, concentrated solar power (CSP)
https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings...
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16012018/csp-co...
Given that the average passenger car is parked for 96% of its life, then why put the pannels on the car (limited space, need to crash resistant, not likely to be perfectly aligned to the sun) when you could put the panels next to the parking space. The average car roof is about 1.5m wide by 2.0 meters long, ie 3 square meters, which with perfect isolation would be about 3kW of power with 100% efficient cells. But my house roof, my garage roof, the roof of the building where i work or shop is massive, tens or hundreds of quare meters, nicely protected from scrapes and knocks of everyday life, with little vibration and generally not that dirty.
Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
OverSteery said:
tommy1973s said:
...........Next improvements in solar panels are expected to provide a 700% efficiency gain........ .
Hmm, 7x more efficient? If they are about 25% efficient now, I think they hoping for a breakthrough in the laws of physics? It will likely take someone like Tesla to add solar panels for people to actually take any notice. I think Elon said they would add them when they consider them worth it. Then you'll see a big presentation and the electric cars story will change.
ReverendCounter said:
I was wondering if you could have another type of solar power in hot countries.
A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
Reverendcounter, I’d be interested to know why you are so keen on Rankine cycle energy systems. As I intimated on the micro turbine thread, the concept of using a heat source to drive a turbine is a very well understood and highly developed science. It is the basis for a large percentage of energy conversion systems over the last 150 years.A network of small diameter pipes under the external skin of the car would get very hot, maybe to the point that fluid in the pipes would turn to gas and power a turbine+generator for the batteries when the car's parked up at work.
The Laws of Thermodynamics that govern these systems are essentially the limit to how far they can be developed. The theoretical ideal Carnot efficiency is around 64%. In practice however it ends up being a lot less, particularly so as the system scale is reduced. Anything that can be contained in a passenger car and only producing a few kW is going to be right at the bottom end of the scale, where efficiency gets to the point of being ‘worthless’. I use that to describe the worth in comparison to the alternatives from a cost/efficiency standpoint.
Rankine cycles require a pump, heat exchangers (evaporator and condenser), pipe work, a turbine, a generator, a speed control system and for variable heat input, power electronics to manage the output of the generator. As well as a working fluid. And it needs to be kept in tip top shape to preserve performance.
Extracting maximum efficiency or effectiveness from the Rankine cycle stages requires each to be state-of-the-art. Any system with complex heat exchanges and rotating machinery comes with both a very high upfront cost and usually some form of maintenance/replacement programme to keep the system at peak efficiency. The complexity of constructing and ensuring leakage prevention in trying to cover a car in fluid carrying heat exchangers is a huge challenge for a single car, let alone trying to productionise something like that. And you also need to think about how to deal with accident damage repair.
Compare that with solid state electrical devices, and it’s essentially old world vs new, analogue vs digital, the past vs the future. We have to move away from the idea of having discrete thermodynamic devices in every car, those days are gone. The only place it now makes sense to introduce any form of turbo machinery is where the energy is coming directly from moving natural resources (wind, wave, tidal, geothermal).
If you look up Rankine Cycle on Wikipedia (and the Organic Rankine Cycle link in that page) you can learn more about the system stages and what each one involves.
GT119, I do appreciate the time you've taken to explain why my suggestion isn't a practical solution. I read your previous response and although I didn't reply I have been mulling over your careful explanation.
I think that my comments are based on using these mechanisms to charge a battery while the car isn't being used for long periods, rather than in a charge-as-you-wait situation.
I think that my comments are based on using these mechanisms to charge a battery while the car isn't being used for long periods, rather than in a charge-as-you-wait situation.
Max_Torque said:
Given that the average passenger car is parked for 96% of its life, then why put the pannels on the car (limited space, need to crash resistant, not likely to be perfectly aligned to the sun) when you could put the panels next to the parking space. The average car roof is about 1.5m wide by 2.0 meters long, ie 3 square meters, which with perfect isolation would be about 3kW of power with 100% efficient cells. But my house roof, my garage roof, the roof of the building where i work or shop is massive, tens or hundreds of quare meters, nicely protected from scrapes and knocks of everyday life, with little vibration and generally not that dirty.
Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
What about a flexible solar panel blanket you could keep in the boot and once you park up, it gets unrolled out over the bonnet, roof and boot, secured to the car and then connected to the charging lead. It could even drape down over the side windows.Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
ReverendCounter said:
Max_Torque said:
Given that the average passenger car is parked for 96% of its life, then why put the pannels on the car (limited space, need to crash resistant, not likely to be perfectly aligned to the sun) when you could put the panels next to the parking space. The average car roof is about 1.5m wide by 2.0 meters long, ie 3 square meters, which with perfect isolation would be about 3kW of power with 100% efficient cells. But my house roof, my garage roof, the roof of the building where i work or shop is massive, tens or hundreds of quare meters, nicely protected from scrapes and knocks of everyday life, with little vibration and generally not that dirty.
Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
What about a flexible solar panel blanket you could keep in the boot and once you park up, it gets unrolled out over the bonnet, roof and boot, secured to the car and then connected to the charging lead. It could even drape down over the side windows.Putting solar panels on the actual car is imo, a very poor use of those panels, when they are far better off on the roof next to the car.......
ReverendCounter said:
What about a flexible solar panel blanket you could keep in the boot and once you park up, it gets unrolled out over the bonnet, roof and boot, secured to the car and then connected to the charging lead. It could even drape down over the side windows.
They would get nicked. What some manufacturers are looking at is the whole car, panels, glass, being solar. Toyota have been spotted testing this tech.If they can get 10-20miles out of the sun per day in the next ten years that's a total game changer, like... change the world amazing. That's going to cover the vast majority of the worlds driving forever.
It's a nice idea in theory but I'm not too convinced in practice unless they get the PV panels down to a nearly inconsequential weight. When they are totally flexible and not much heavier than paint then by all means make the entire body out of them.
Otherwise even with 100% energy conversion there isn't enough to energy from the sun hitting a car sized area to drive a car directly so there must be some energy storage. If you are storing the energy anyway it might as well be generated away from the car so you don't have to lug the panels around.
Otherwise even with 100% energy conversion there isn't enough to energy from the sun hitting a car sized area to drive a car directly so there must be some energy storage. If you are storing the energy anyway it might as well be generated away from the car so you don't have to lug the panels around.
TurboHatchback said:
It's a nice idea in theory but I'm not too convinced in practice unless they get the PV panels down to a nearly inconsequential weight. When they are totally flexible and not much heavier than paint then by all means make the entire body out of them.
Otherwise even with 100% energy conversion there isn't enough to energy from the sun hitting a car sized area to drive a car directly so there must be some energy storage. If you are storing the energy anyway it might as well be generated away from the car so you don't have to lug the panels around.
Well yes, right now Tesla say it's better to have the panels on your house feeding your parked car.Otherwise even with 100% energy conversion there isn't enough to energy from the sun hitting a car sized area to drive a car directly so there must be some energy storage. If you are storing the energy anyway it might as well be generated away from the car so you don't have to lug the panels around.
But in Europe that isn't always ideal, no driveway etc. car parked at work and so on. the car itself making its own energy all as one unit would be quite something. Leave your car parked over the weekend and get 35-40miles more range seems fantastic to me. Entirely feasible that someone with a 15 mile commute would never need to charge their car ever.
Solves a lot of the issues people keep brining up here re the grid, having no drive way, tax on electricity etc. it might be worth having it as an option on cars just to shut down those arguments.
jjwilde said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNjUdTJjiNk&fe...
That was their launch video, apparently the people making it are legit, it isn't just a scam, we shall see tho.
It's sold out I believe although I think they are trying to scale it up now.
It's certainly an interesting car.
I think 40 miles from solar a day is enough for almost everyone in the UK, it would certainly end all this 'thE gRid wOnT coPe' rubbish we keep seeing.
Be VERY cautious about Aptera - they have an extremely suspicious history and this is not a new thing for them. The original concept dates back to 2009 / 2010 and went bankrupt before selling a single car. Then they attempted to do it again in 2017 I think and have now launched again in 2020. Take a look at their Wefunder campaign:That was their launch video, apparently the people making it are legit, it isn't just a scam, we shall see tho.
It's sold out I believe although I think they are trying to scale it up now.
It's certainly an interesting car.
I think 40 miles from solar a day is enough for almost everyone in the UK, it would certainly end all this 'thE gRid wOnT coPe' rubbish we keep seeing.
[url]https://wefunder.com/aptera[\url]
Currently at $2.6m which I doubt is close to even building a set of prototypes! But hey, happy to be proven wrong.
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