EV or PHEV with large rear seat space

[chandrew]

I'm looking for a new family car in the first half of 2021 and need some recommendations.

We live at 1750m in the Swiss Alps. Unfortunately the majority of car dealerships of any size are at least 2 hours away so I have to plan car shopping.

I have 2 children both of which are tall. The oldest has just turned 15 and is well on his way to 2m. The younger one will likely be 1.95m during the period that I own the car. I'd prefer they were both in the rear seats so we need something with proper rear leg and head room.

Given where we are there is snow on the roads half the year so I also need AWD. Sports equipment also means it needs to take a roof-rack (No Model X)

Most of our trips are in the valley and a modern PHEV would probably spend most of its time running on electricity. However when I leave the valley (airport, going to clients, visiting family & friends) the drives are likely to be at least 3.5 hours each way. We do several 8 hour+ drives a year with the full family in & I don't want teenagers moaning in the back because they're uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

[Nickbrapp]

Audi e TRON/ merc EQC for EV
Audi Q7 PHEV
Volvo XC90 T8
BMW X5 45e

Nearly every company with a big car in its line up has a plug in hybrid now

[off_again]

Nickbrapp said:

Audi e TRON/ merc EQC for EV
Audi Q7 PHEV
Volvo XC90 T8
BMW X5 45e

Nearly every company with a big car in its line up has a plug in hybrid now

Harry Metcalfe did a bit on the Range Rover Sport hybrid and X5 one - really rated the BMW over the RR! While a little boring, I would go for the BMW because of the efficiency and effective drivetrain.

[raspy]

BMW 745Le xDrive ticks all your boxes and given it's designed for luxury and has a bigger rear cabin than the normal 7 series, all the passengers will be happy and very comfortable on your long drives

[dvs_dave]

Only option for true rear seat legroom for 6’6”+ is a LWB saloon car. No SUV’s other than a LWB Range Rover will cut it. Speaking from experience here as a 6’8” 120kg beefcake.

Not sure on your budget, but there are a few PHEV options out there, although all of them are pretty spendy. A8, 7-series, S-class are all available with PHEV all-wheel drive LWB options.

[J6542]

Skoda superb has lots of rear leg room. No experience of the hybrid train tho.

[chandrew]

Thanks all for the advice, especially dvs_dave and his personal experience.

I hadn't realised that the big saloons had PHEV options. We had tested a Range Rover, just a standard SWB model and I was pleasantly surprised with how it drove even with a 2 litre petrol engine in such a big car.

I guess that the way to find a big saloon is to find an ex commercial one. A friend here who is the manager of a 5 star hotel had a 760iL a year or so ago to run guests around and he noted it had lost over CHF 100k off the original list price in less than a year. I'd be OK with one as long as somebody else had taken the initial hit. This winter he's running a LWB Range Rover as well as his usual Phantoms so I'll ask him if we can have a look to see how much bigger that is that the one we drove.

[RoystonVasey]

Worth considering a Mercedes GLE 350de too? It’s a Plug In Hybrid, but has a much greater electric range than many at 100km.

Edited by RoystonVasey on Tuesday 5th January 11:18

[raspy]

chandrew said:

Thanks all for the advice, especially dvs_dave and his personal experience.

I hadn't realised that the big saloons had PHEV options. We had tested a Range Rover, just a standard SWB model and I was pleasantly surprised with how it drove even with a 2 litre petrol engine in such a big car.

I guess that the way to find a big saloon is to find an ex commercial one. A friend here who is the manager of a 5 star hotel had a 760iL a year or so ago to run guests around and he noted it had lost over CHF 100k off the original list price in less than a year. I'd be OK with one as long as somebody else had taken the initial hit. This winter he's running a LWB Range Rover as well as his usual Phantoms so I'll ask him if we can have a look to see how much bigger that is that the one we drove.

Don't know how feasible to buy a UK RHD car, but you can pick up a virtually new 2020 745Le XDrive with 5 miles on the clock from a BMW dealer for £51,500.

The "list" price (that people don't actually pay because of the big discounts) is around £95,000 (before adding any major options)

[Blue Oval84]

What are the public charging networks like where you are?

If they're anything much poorer than the Tesla Supercharger network then I doubt you'd be happy with any non-Tesla EV on your longer trips.

I took a Model 3 Long Range on a 335 mile drive at Christmas, started at 100% battery and gasped into the Grantham Supercharger (after about 210 miles) with less than 10 miles remaining in my battery. I then had to stop again briefly at Scotch Corner. This was only possible without planning because I knew I could use Superchargers. Any other EV and I'd have had a thoroughly miserable journey hunting around for working chargers and even then would probably have only been able to top up at 50kW instead of 120kW. Also, it surprised me that a 330 mile rated EV (IIRC) was only good for 220 actual motorway miles in winter, despite being essentially one of the best in the market, so bear that in mind when looking at them.

So assuming you don't want a Model S, this basically leaves you with PHEVs in my opinion.

I'll add Volvo S90 T8 to the suggestion mix, cracking car, 400bhp, AWD, comfortable and spacious.

[dvs_dave]

chandrew said:

Thanks all for the advice, especially dvs_dave and his personal experience.

I hadn't realised that the big saloons had PHEV options. We had tested a Range Rover, just a standard SWB model and I was pleasantly surprised with how it drove even with a 2 litre petrol engine in such a big car.

I guess that the way to find a big saloon is to find an ex commercial one. A friend here who is the manager of a 5 star hotel had a 760iL a year or so ago to run guests around and he noted it had lost over CHF 100k off the original list price in less than a year. I'd be OK with one as long as somebody else had taken the initial hit. This winter he's running a LWB Range Rover as well as his usual Phantoms so I'll ask him if we can have a look to see how much bigger that is that the one we drove.

Yes, they depreciate like crazy so always a cracking used buy. LWB Range Rover has huge rear legroom, and I can “sit behind myself” with tons of legroom to spare. So if you can get the PHEV version as a long wheelbase in your market, then that’s a winner, especially for mountain/ski resort duty. But they’re still expensive.

A big saloon with all wheel drive will still do you very well. Likely cheaper to buy, and much more under the radar than a Range Rover if that’s a factor.

Regards all the other SUV suggestions being made, literally none of them will get anywhere close to your needs. I have looked at every one of them and rear seat room is always poor behind tall front occupants. People who aren’t 2m+ tall have very little idea what actually constitutes a spacious car in this regard.

Oh, another one to check out, the latest Mercedes GLS. They have solid rear room, and the Audi Q8 is roomier in the back than you’d think.

And a left field option, a Porsche Panamera e-hybrid; specifically the “executive” trim which is the LWB version.

Edited by dvs_dave on Wednesday 6th January 01:45

[JonnyVTEC]

Discovery Sport is a decent size in the rear seats.

Edited by JonnyVTEC on Thursday 7th January 18:16

[chandrew]

Blue Oval84 said:

What are the public charging networks like where you are?

If they're anything much poorer than the Tesla Supercharger network then I doubt you'd be happy with any non-Tesla EV on your longer trips.

I took a Model 3 Long Range on a 335 mile drive at Christmas, started at 100% battery and gasped into the Grantham Supercharger (after about 210 miles) with less than 10 miles remaining in my battery. I then had to stop again briefly at Scotch Corner. This was only possible without planning because I knew I could use Superchargers. Any other EV and I'd have had a thoroughly miserable journey hunting around for working chargers and even then would probably have only been able to top up at 50kW instead of 120kW. Also, it surprised me that a 330 mile rated EV (IIRC) was only good for 220 actual motorway miles in winter, despite being essentially one of the best in the market, so bear that in mind when looking at them.

So assuming you don't want a Model S, this basically leaves you with PHEVs in my opinion.

I'll add Volvo S90 T8 to the suggestion mix, cracking car, 400bhp, AWD, comfortable and spacious.

I think we're fine with the high-speed charging network. I have a Supercharger station about 200m from the house, and there is a 150kW charger about 500m away. Ionity have a number of stations and there are some other very fast chargers around the motorway network. I ran a first-edition BEV i3 5 years ago as a second car before we moved up to the mountains and it was a different story back then. That being said we do at least one annual trip to my parents in Cumbria so that would mean needing UK charging.

The Model S is an option if it has enough space and the pricing compared to the other stuff is good here (a new S is about 20-30% less than an eTron). I'd have to check rear space as I don't remember it being great. I think the nearest showrooms will be either Zurich or Milan which are both about 3.5 hours away (and Milan currently off limits due to closed borders).

I do like the Volvo (though would have the V90) however they're comparatively expensive here and given the tax benefits of PHEVs are not what they are in the UK there are very few used cars around. In fact the most popular Range Rover here (at least by what's on the used market or as demonstrators) is the 5.0 SC.

[chandrew]

dvs_dave said:

Likely cheaper to buy, and much more under the radar than a Range Rover if that’s a factor.

Fortunately pretty much everything that I can afford is under the radar here. Cullinans only get noticed if they're in a bright colour. The G63 is one of the more common SUVs. There are currently multiple GTC 4 Lussos driving around town with skis on their roofs at the moment.

The really rich here mostly drive around in something discrete. The cult car here is the Fiat Panda 4x4, especially mint versions of the 80s one. Gianni Agnelli had one for when he was up here at his house and it set a trend. Personally I harbour a longing to convert one to be an EV.

dvs_dave said:

And a left field option, a Porsche Panamera e-hybrid; specifically the “executive” trim which is the LWB version.

I'm not sure the LWB version is here and Panameras (and all Porsche's) are really expensive here

[BJWoods]

chandrew said:

I'm looking for a new family car in the first half of 2021 and need some recommendations.

We live at 1750m in the Swiss Alps. Unfortunately the majority of car dealerships of any size are at least 2 hours away so I have to plan car shopping.

I have 2 children both of which are tall. The oldest has just turned 15 and is well on his way to 2m. The younger one will likely be 1.95m during the period that I own the car. I'd prefer they were both in the rear seats so we need something with proper rear leg and head room.

Given where we are there is snow on the roads half the year so I also need AWD. Sports equipment also means it needs to take a roof-rack (No Model X)

Most of our trips are in the valley and a modern PHEV would probably spend most of its time running on electricity. However when I leave the valley (airport, going to clients, visiting family & friends) the drives are likely to be at least 3.5 hours each way. We do several 8 hour+ drives a year with the full family in & I don't want teenagers moaning in the back because they're uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

new Discovery Sport PHEV - 38 miles EV, 1.5 petrol engine, combined 300 BHP..

ticks all the boxes?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/land-rover/di...

Edited by BJWoods on Wednesday 6th January 12:20

[chandrew]

BJWoods said:

new Discovery Sport PHEV - 38 miles EV, 1.5 petrol engine, combined 300 BHP..

ticks all the boxes?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/land-rover/di...

Edited by BJWoods on Wednesday 6th January 12:20

Although they look quite small, looking at the numbers on the Land Rover site suggests that they're a bit of a Tardis. From what I can see from the Land Rover site it's not too far off a SWB Range Rover and Defender and better than the Range Rover Sport or BMW X5 which look like bigger vehicles. Luggage space is excellent which is also a consideration given we have kayaks, cycles, camping kit etc to haul around. Of course it's usefully cheaper than a Range Rover though not too different when I've selected the relevant options than a Defender.

Good shout.

[BJWoods]

chandrew said:

Although they look quite small, looking at the numbers on the Land Rover site suggests that they're a bit of a Tardis. From what I can see from the Land Rover site it's not too far off a SWB Range Rover and Defender and better than the Range Rover Sport or BMW X5 which look like bigger vehicles. Luggage space is excellent which is also a consideration given we have kayaks, cycles, camping kit etc to haul around. Of course it's usefully cheaper than a Range Rover though not too different when I've selected the relevant options than a Defender.

Good shout.

you only lose the third row occasional seats in the PHEV version of the Discovery Sport (5 seater, vs 7 seater) .. Full size adults easily fit in the back, good head room and leg room.

[dvs_dave]

chandrew said:

BJWoods said:

new Discovery Sport PHEV - 38 miles EV, 1.5 petrol engine, combined 300 BHP..

ticks all the boxes?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/land-rover/di...

Edited by BJWoods on Wednesday 6th January 12:20

Although they look quite small, looking at the numbers on the Land Rover site suggests that they're a bit of a Tardis. From what I can see from the Land Rover site it's not too far off a SWB Range Rover and Defender and better than the Range Rover Sport or BMW X5 which look like bigger vehicles. Luggage space is excellent which is also a consideration given we have kayaks, cycles, camping kit etc to haul around. Of course it's usefully cheaper than a Range Rover though not too different when I've selected the relevant options than a Defender.

Good shout.

I had a look at these as on paper they looked promising. Reality not so great. Rear legroom was better than anticipated, but again, poor behind tall front occupants. The rear bench is also actually quite small. Both narrow, and the seat squab is short so not actually very comfortable for a tall occupant.

The Defender however is one that I forgot about and that DOES have good rear legroom, especially as you can slide the 2nd row seats back. 3rd row though, forget it. Waste of time, especially with the second row seats slid back. Not even a toddler would fit! Need to wait for the 130 version if you need a functional 3rd row.

[chandrew]

Just closing the loop. After having a look at most of the options we decided to order a Defender 110 PHEV.

There were a few factors that swung it. First, and most importantly, the rear space is excellent. As well as having great head and leg room it's been designed so passenger's feet can go easily under the front seat increasing usable space. My son felt that the space was better than the Range Rover SWB.

Second we all liked the combination of rugged, hard-wearing interior materials and a proper off-road capability. Most of the winter we have 5 or 6 pairs of skis permanently in the car and there are usually puddles of water on the rubber mats from snow brought in on boots. In the summer it's camping kit, bikes, kayaks and wetsuits. On road it was the closest drive to the Range Rover, but offered more practicality. It helped that we drove it in a snowstorm, on winter tyres. Even tests like starting on a steep slope caused it zero issues.

From what I can find the Discovery Sport, like the V90 T8 gets AWD by having 2 wheels conventionally powered and the rear 2 by electricity. Given our use-case we wanted to be able to drive AWD in electric-only. Most of the time, especially in the winter, it will be short trips driving on ice and snow.

Finally the pricing, at least here in Switzerland, was good. It's not vastly more expensive than the Discovery Sport once you've brought both to a similar level of kit. It's cheaper than a Range Rover, even a 1 or 2 year example, or an eTron etc. (I think if we had decided on a full EV it would have been the Audi - rear space was good).

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions and advice.

[dvs_dave]

Good choice. I figured the new Defender was probably going to be your best bet, all things considered.