Video on the pollution comparisons between ICE and Electric
Discussion
hepy said:
Very interesting, never thought about all the energy that is used just to pump the oil and refine it.
Really?It's quite telling tbh, I remember the German "research" bureau that deducted an EV was almost as polluting than an ICE in Polland.
Bu for the ICE you have tailpipe emissions and the EV they did start to finish.
So somehow they made the jump that petrol magically appeared at the pump?
The amount of times stuff like that gets quoted to you by uncles who know you drive an EV is staggering.
The video does make a couple of jumps in the other direction, which I don't really like, but it does make you think we built ISLANDS IN THE OCEAN to drill up oil.
ZesPak said:
off_again said:
And yet the skip the energy required to create the batteries! And then talk about recycling of batteries, which is currently not the norm.
They also skip the production of the fuel tank and engine? Two things that I have only seen raised a couple of times though, which is odd:
1) As the electricity grid moves more to renewables, the 'environmental cost' will always improve with EV's
2) Localized pollution in cities and heavily populated areas absolutely will improve with the shift to EV's (of all types)
So they are good for a lot of reasons, but pretty much everything I see focuses on a narrative that just ends up being so pro that particular side, I turn off quickly.
off_again said:
Two things that I have only seen raised a couple of times though, which is odd:
1) As the electricity grid moves more to renewables, the 'environmental cost' will always improve with EV's
2) Localized pollution in cities and heavily populated areas absolutely will improve with the shift to EV's (of all types)
So they are good for a lot of reasons, but pretty much everything I see focuses on a narrative that just ends up being so pro that particular side, I turn off quickly.
Both are EV narratives, and both are used extensively in the video, so I have no idea what you're on about...1) As the electricity grid moves more to renewables, the 'environmental cost' will always improve with EV's
2) Localized pollution in cities and heavily populated areas absolutely will improve with the shift to EV's (of all types)
So they are good for a lot of reasons, but pretty much everything I see focuses on a narrative that just ends up being so pro that particular side, I turn off quickly.
off_again said:
hepy said:
Very interesting, never thought about all the energy that is used just to pump the oil and refine it.
And yet the skip the energy required to create the batteries! And then talk about recycling of batteries, which is currently not the norm. For repower jobs, for diy power walls, for spares for EVs, nobody is throwing away batteries today! And the recycling schemes, which are OE supported are now ramping up steadily to deal with the time when EV batteries loose their value and do become scap. Except, as EV productions volumes ramp up, and more and more raw materials are needed for batteries, then the old batteries in which those materials are not used or consumed in anyway, those will likely always hold their value!
The significant cost in terms of Co2 is the fact that each and every ICE models needs to be individually developed and certified. The extensive emissions and on-board diagnostics requirements mean that even if two models use the same engine, they both need to be individually homologated for tailpipe emissions and diagnostic conformability. Those are multi-million programs, that require thousands of engineers, costs millions per model, and burn during the process, tens of thousands of gallons of fuel!
And none of that is the case for an electric motor and battery, which has no "emissions" to worry about, has no requirement for mandated diagnostics (because when it goes wrong it just stops, unlike an ICE that can go slightly wrong in a vast number of ways and keep running but in doing so, pump out enourmous quantities of pollution as it does)
Take a single facet of homologation, the certification of tailpipe emissions at end of life. The legislation requires each model to demonstrate that at 10 years and 150,000 km, its tailpipe emissions are not outside the limits set. To do that, the manufacturer has to age catalysts and fuel system and aftertreatment components to simulate that age/state. This is done by cycling the cats and components in a very controlled way on an engine on a dyno. Typically, for each model, a set of 10 complete aged systems will be required. Each one, will burn around 20,000 litres of fuel as it is aged! This adds up to a massive carbon footprint, and you'll never see it mentioned once in any comparison between ICE's and EV's........
And none of that is the case for an electric motor and battery, which has no "emissions" to worry about, has no requirement for mandated diagnostics (because when it goes wrong it just stops, unlike an ICE that can go slightly wrong in a vast number of ways and keep running but in doing so, pump out enourmous quantities of pollution as it does)
Take a single facet of homologation, the certification of tailpipe emissions at end of life. The legislation requires each model to demonstrate that at 10 years and 150,000 km, its tailpipe emissions are not outside the limits set. To do that, the manufacturer has to age catalysts and fuel system and aftertreatment components to simulate that age/state. This is done by cycling the cats and components in a very controlled way on an engine on a dyno. Typically, for each model, a set of 10 complete aged systems will be required. Each one, will burn around 20,000 litres of fuel as it is aged! This adds up to a massive carbon footprint, and you'll never see it mentioned once in any comparison between ICE's and EV's........
Maybe they should play this video in primary schools so that future generations understand what's going on?
I don't think this video would convince those adults who believe that one of their fundamental human rights is to drive an ICE car for eternity, and that life isn't worth living unless you're driving a car with a V8 engine.
I don't think this video would convince those adults who believe that one of their fundamental human rights is to drive an ICE car for eternity, and that life isn't worth living unless you're driving a car with a V8 engine.
raspy said:
I don't think this video would convince those adults who believe that one of their fundamental human rights is to drive an ICE car for eternity, and that life isn't worth living unless you're driving a car with a V8 engine 4 pot diesel.
EFA , the sad reality of the naysayers.
Quite itneresting
I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
MDL111 said:
Quite itneresting
I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
I'm all for these ideas but businesses and people in general won't accept these higher costs just to continue working / driving.I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
Best option is to subsidise electric vehicles to the hilt. £10-15k off to aid uptake and improve infrastructure. It would promote car development ie range and charge times and eventually everyone would question why am I buying petrol/diesel costing more.
Sadly it seems the government aren't looking to continue grants, I guess the same as solar panel feed in tariff dropping off.
Max_Torque said:
off_again said:
hepy said:
Very interesting, never thought about all the energy that is used just to pump the oil and refine it.
And yet the skip the energy required to create the batteries! And then talk about recycling of batteries, which is currently not the norm. For repower jobs, for diy power walls, for spares for EVs, nobody is throwing away batteries today! And the recycling schemes, which are OE supported are now ramping up steadily to deal with the time when EV batteries loose their value and do become scap. Except, as EV productions volumes ramp up, and more and more raw materials are needed for batteries, then the old batteries in which those materials are not used or consumed in anyway, those will likely always hold their value!
This article paints a different picture
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779
It says quoted recycle is about 5% and some countries it is considerably less.
I wouldn't disagree that EV car use is more efficient and less polluting than ICE however the allocation of pollution (reduced pollution in developed world cities versus increased pollution in mining in poorer countries and no doubt poorer countries will take the disposed batteries)
MDL111 said:
Quite itneresting
I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
As ICE engines age they pollute more. not just because of wear and tear but from the owners bypassing or removing instead of fixing emission control devices, so keeping them longer will increase pollution.I have a solution that would hopefully actually help the environment - consists of 2 parts
1) triple of quadruple tax on fuel sales so demand decreases (in all likelihood substantially once a litre costs 6-8 GBP)
2) increase sales tax on all new cars to 100 or 200 percent so people stop buying new cars every 2-3 years and instead drive them for say 7-10 years
While at it, could also increase tax on aviation fuel substantially to make flying more expensive / a luxury again, which would probably also be quite helpful.
All wishful thinking on my part and even if i had political ambiitons, unfortunately not the platform to get elected on.
Added taxes collected will be channeled into a politicians brand new social program, and when the increased tax has the desired effect and the money starts drying up, the new social program will not go away but will get it's funding by increasing taxes on something else.
The end of the ICE engine era is coming to a close all on it's own, no real need to accelerate it.
sja360 said:
I'm all for these ideas but businesses and people in general won't accept these higher costs just to continue working / driving.
Best option is to subsidise electric vehicles to the hilt. £10-15k off to aid uptake and improve infrastructure. It would promote car development ie range and charge times and eventually everyone would question why am I buying petrol/diesel costing more.
Sadly it seems the government aren't looking to continue grants, I guess the same as solar panel feed in tariff dropping off.
I think this is a big part of the struggle. Most people, at least in developed countries where we get exposed to their opinions, are either happy enough with their current life, or are at the point where they will not accept a drop in living standards in any area. Most people want their life to carry on as it is and not have to deal with some new compromise. People are resistant to change and I can't exclude myself from that either.Best option is to subsidise electric vehicles to the hilt. £10-15k off to aid uptake and improve infrastructure. It would promote car development ie range and charge times and eventually everyone would question why am I buying petrol/diesel costing more.
Sadly it seems the government aren't looking to continue grants, I guess the same as solar panel feed in tariff dropping off.
This inertia will always resist change and I can't see humanity getting to the point where the majority will voluntarily make lifestyle sacrifices for the greater good. It ultimately happens but it's really slow and usually only happens when keeping to the old becomes very impractical or change is forced on us.
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