Isle of Man EVs - what's the point?
Discussion
Despite being an enthusiastic petrol head, I have been lurking on the fringes of buying an EV for a while as a local runabout. Two things put me off.
First the extra mass of batteries makes the equivalent sized cars about 400kg heavier (say VW Golf vs ID3) - and I struggle to get my head around how using energy to move the mass of 5 extra adults all the time can be "green".
Second, the Isle of Man has a relatively new gas fired power station and heat from waste plant, both of which spectacularly blew their capex budgets and will take many more years to pay for. So investment in renewable energy has been economically discouraged (eg by massively different prices for units bought/sold to the grid further exacerbated by refusing net metering). That made installing a 6 KVA wind turbine at home in 2008 at £25k cost uneconomic....and I think similar connection rules still apply.
Only 1% of all grid power on the Island today is from renewable sources. https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ca...
Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
First the extra mass of batteries makes the equivalent sized cars about 400kg heavier (say VW Golf vs ID3) - and I struggle to get my head around how using energy to move the mass of 5 extra adults all the time can be "green".
Second, the Isle of Man has a relatively new gas fired power station and heat from waste plant, both of which spectacularly blew their capex budgets and will take many more years to pay for. So investment in renewable energy has been economically discouraged (eg by massively different prices for units bought/sold to the grid further exacerbated by refusing net metering). That made installing a 6 KVA wind turbine at home in 2008 at £25k cost uneconomic....and I think similar connection rules still apply.
Only 1% of all grid power on the Island today is from renewable sources. https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ca...
Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
HocusPocus said:
Despite being an enthusiastic petrol head, I have been lurking on the fringes of buying an EV for a while as a local runabout. Two things put me off.
First the extra mass of batteries makes the equivalent sized cars about 400kg heavier (say VW Golf vs ID3) - and I struggle to get my head around how using energy to move the mass of 5 extra adults all the time can be "green".
Second, the Isle of Man has a relatively new gas fired power station and heat from waste plant, both of which spectacularly blew their capex budgets and will take many more years to pay for. So investment in renewable energy has been economically discouraged (eg by massively different prices for units bought/sold to the grid further exacerbated by refusing net metering). That made installing a 6 KVA wind turbine at home in 2008 at £25k cost uneconomic....and I think similar connection rules still apply.
Only 1% of all grid power on the Island today is from renewable sources. https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ca...
Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
short answer is yes....First the extra mass of batteries makes the equivalent sized cars about 400kg heavier (say VW Golf vs ID3) - and I struggle to get my head around how using energy to move the mass of 5 extra adults all the time can be "green".
Second, the Isle of Man has a relatively new gas fired power station and heat from waste plant, both of which spectacularly blew their capex budgets and will take many more years to pay for. So investment in renewable energy has been economically discouraged (eg by massively different prices for units bought/sold to the grid further exacerbated by refusing net metering). That made installing a 6 KVA wind turbine at home in 2008 at £25k cost uneconomic....and I think similar connection rules still apply.
Only 1% of all grid power on the Island today is from renewable sources. https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ca...
Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
Big picture here...85,000 people in isle of man - google number of cars registered in Isle of man,,,,so thats around 65,000 say half of these are driving... ? 32,000 cars all buring fossil fuel. take that away and a power station produces. Thats a massive drop in polution.
Modern gas power station is a lot more energy efficient than an internal combustion engine which wastes loads as heat. 365g CO2 per kWh generated quoted in a 2011 report. Typical EV does about 4 miles (6.4km) per kWh, so like driving a petrol car that does 57g/km. Except it's not, because the g/km figures for ICE cars exclude the significant CO2 output to extract, refine and transport that fuel.
No local air quality nasties like NOx and diesel particulates.
Assuming you charge at home - big saving in running cost, the convenience of a full battery after an overnight charge rather than a trip to the petrol station, and having a pre-warmed or cooled car.
Some of us just like the way they drive too.
No local air quality nasties like NOx and diesel particulates.
Assuming you charge at home - big saving in running cost, the convenience of a full battery after an overnight charge rather than a trip to the petrol station, and having a pre-warmed or cooled car.
Some of us just like the way they drive too.
ruggedscotty said:
short answer is yes....
Big picture here...85,000 people in isle of man - google number of cars registered in Isle of man,,,,so thats around 65,000 say half of these are driving... ? 32,000 cars all buring fossil fuel. take that away and a power station produces. Thats a massive drop in polution.
Air quality/pollution is not an issue being a rural population in the middle of the Irish Sea. I accept the pollution equation will be different in densely populated areas.Big picture here...85,000 people in isle of man - google number of cars registered in Isle of man,,,,so thats around 65,000 say half of these are driving... ? 32,000 cars all buring fossil fuel. take that away and a power station produces. Thats a massive drop in polution.
My point is more the net carbon cost of getting to the shops if the only green gain might be the balancing greater efficiency of a gas fired turbine/waste burner versus a modern ICE lugging around 400kg less every trip.
To me personally it wouldn’t stack up there. I have a Renault Zoe ZE50. These are the reasons it makes sense for me:
- I charge at home overnight for 5p/kWh. It does ~4miles per kWh = 1.25ppm so approx 1/8th the fuel cost of my economical diesel Golf.
- I don’t have to pay congestion charge to drive into London. Saving me £15 once or twice a week.
- electric cars are great for driving in heavy stop/start traffic.
- when I got the car we switched to a green energy tariff; it probably isn’t quite a simple case of supply and demand, but at some level the more people who do this the more energy suppliers are likely to invest in renewable energy sources.
Completely unrelated, I was surprised that the Zoe is about the same interior and boot space as my previous Golf mk6.
- I charge at home overnight for 5p/kWh. It does ~4miles per kWh = 1.25ppm so approx 1/8th the fuel cost of my economical diesel Golf.
- I don’t have to pay congestion charge to drive into London. Saving me £15 once or twice a week.
- electric cars are great for driving in heavy stop/start traffic.
- when I got the car we switched to a green energy tariff; it probably isn’t quite a simple case of supply and demand, but at some level the more people who do this the more energy suppliers are likely to invest in renewable energy sources.
Completely unrelated, I was surprised that the Zoe is about the same interior and boot space as my previous Golf mk6.
HocusPocus said:
My point is more the net carbon cost of getting to the shops if the only green gain might be the balancing greater efficiency of a gas fired turbine/waste burner versus a modern ICE lugging around 400kg less every trip.
Don't forget EVs have regenerative braking so whilst yes they have more weight to carry around, the energy used to accelerate that weight isn't all thrown away when you want to stop as it is with an ICE vehicle. Thus weigh has a far smaller effect on the economy of an EV than an ICE powered car. The correct environmental solution is, of course, not to buy a new car at all but to continue to run your old one or even better do without a car entirely. However if you're going to buy a brand new car, an EV will be significantly "greener" by just about every metric than an ICE.
kambites said:
Don't forget EVs have regenerative braking so whilst yes they have more weight to carry around, the energy used to accelerate that weight isn't all thrown away when you want to stop as it is with an ICE vehicle. Thus weigh has a far smaller effect on the economy of an EV than an ICE powered car.
The correct environmental solution is, of course, not to buy a new car at all but to continue to run your old one or even better do without a car entirely. However if you're going to buy a brand new car, an EV will be significantly "greener" by just about every metric than an ICE.
Actually, my chosen solution is keep the old ICE cars running and cycle around on an e-bike. However, I am interested to learn the wisdom of PHers who live on the dark green side.The correct environmental solution is, of course, not to buy a new car at all but to continue to run your old one or even better do without a car entirely. However if you're going to buy a brand new car, an EV will be significantly "greener" by just about every metric than an ICE.
So how many total KMs must I travel in an existing 99g/km Golf to better the total carbon footprint cost of building an ID3 and running that at 57g/km (based on only 1% renewable sources in the power mix)?
HocusPocus said:
So how many total KMs must I travel in an existing 99g/km Golf to better the total carbon footprint cost of building an ID3 and running that at 57g/km (based on only 1% renewable sources in the power mix)?
The answer is a LOT, but of course it depends on what happens to the Golf, since it's unlikely to cease to exist. Looking at the big picture, each time a new car is bought, another old car gets taken off the road but it's rarely the car that was directly replaced so if you replace a 99g/km Golf, the thing which actually gets taken off the road will probably ultimately be a knackered 20 year old 200g/km Golf (or similar). Even then the answer is still a lot. From an environmental perspective, "buying new stuff" is generally bad.
In terms of the literal question you ask, a "99g/km" Golf will probably actually put out about 200g/km to run (due to actual vs claimed efficiency and the carbon output from finding, drilling, transporting and refining the fuel). The carbon output from manufacturing a car is difficult to judge but it's going to be of the order of maybe 10 to 20 tonnes in total for something like an ID3? That would put the answer at something like 50-100k km. I'd guess it's at the lower end of the range, but that's only a guess.
Compare the figures to that of our hypothetical 200g/km shed which is ultimately pushed off the road by trickle-down and you end up in the 25-50k km range.
Edited by kambites on Monday 26th April 21:59
HocusPocus said:
Actually, my chosen solution is keep the old ICE cars running and cycle around on an e-bike. However, I am interested to learn the wisdom of PHers who live on the dark green side.
So how many total KMs must I travel in an existing 99g/km Golf to better the total carbon footprint cost of building an ID3 and running that at 57g/km (based on only 1% renewable sources in the power mix)?
What about the carbon footprint involved in getting oil from a well somewhere in the world through multiple processes and locations to transform it into petrol at your local petrol station on the IoM to power your ICE Golf? So how many total KMs must I travel in an existing 99g/km Golf to better the total carbon footprint cost of building an ID3 and running that at 57g/km (based on only 1% renewable sources in the power mix)?
Given that the IOM isn't very big, i'm going to guess your daily mileage is pretty small.
So an EV and some solar panels sounds like a massive win, environmentally speaking, to me!
As mentioned the mass of an EV is pretty much irrelevant, because the intrinsic bi-directionality of the powertrain negates around 70% of that mass (the "round trip efficiency" is about 70% ie battery -> kinetic energy -> battery) so a "two tonne" tesla actually has an equivalent mass of about 600kg from a consumption perspective!
Early studies, which are both incomplete and are comparing low volume EVs with full volume ICEs (ie a logistics and production chain that supports the build of 100,000 cars perannum (or even less) is nothing like as low carbon from an ammortisation per car built perspective as a chain that is set up to build 1, 2 or even 5 million ICE cars!
The latest OE studies, that apply volume equivalence, and actually look at the design, development, validation and certification stages of the car, as well as take a sensible view as to using batteries for second life applications and inculding battery recycling (remember an EV does not use up anything in it's battery) are putting the carbon footprint of an EV at around 65 to 75% of that of a comparable ICE!
So an EV and some solar panels sounds like a massive win, environmentally speaking, to me!
As mentioned the mass of an EV is pretty much irrelevant, because the intrinsic bi-directionality of the powertrain negates around 70% of that mass (the "round trip efficiency" is about 70% ie battery -> kinetic energy -> battery) so a "two tonne" tesla actually has an equivalent mass of about 600kg from a consumption perspective!
Early studies, which are both incomplete and are comparing low volume EVs with full volume ICEs (ie a logistics and production chain that supports the build of 100,000 cars perannum (or even less) is nothing like as low carbon from an ammortisation per car built perspective as a chain that is set up to build 1, 2 or even 5 million ICE cars!
The latest OE studies, that apply volume equivalence, and actually look at the design, development, validation and certification stages of the car, as well as take a sensible view as to using batteries for second life applications and inculding battery recycling (remember an EV does not use up anything in it's battery) are putting the carbon footprint of an EV at around 65 to 75% of that of a comparable ICE!
Max_Torque said:
oh, and BTW, if you buy a secondhand BMW i3 it only weighs 1200kg and being second hand someone else has already accounted for it's build footprint.........
True but only has a range of 60 miles in winter 
and that’s on the Isle of ManManx based ID3 owner here, with photovoltaic panels, and off peak charging, it costs buttons to run.
HocusPocus said:
Only 1% of all grid power on the Island today is from renewable sources. https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/ca...
Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
In short, yes.Is there any point of buying an electric car in IOM with all its extra carbon cost in manufacture, just to then move its extra 400kg of battery all the time using electricity which almost all comes from burning gas or household waste?
This answers most of your questions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA
bigmowley said:
Max_Torque said:
oh, and BTW, if you buy a secondhand BMW i3 it only weighs 1200kg and being second hand someone else has already accounted for it's build footprint.........
True but only has a range of 60 miles in winter and that’s on the Isle of ManManx based ID3 owner here, with photovoltaic panels, and off peak charging, it costs buttons to run.
bigmowley said:
Max_Torque said:
oh, and BTW, if you buy a secondhand BMW i3 it only weighs 1200kg and being second hand someone else has already accounted for it's build footprint.........
True but only has a range of 60 miles in winter and that’s on the Isle of ManManx based ID3 owner here, with photovoltaic panels, and off peak charging, it costs buttons to run.
Totally get the carbon cost of delivering any processed fuel to point of consumption. Given the IOM power station has gas delivered in a bespoke high pressure buried pipe crossing the Irish Sea, its carbon footprint will not be dissimilar. So I guess the CO2 saving is the differential in the efficiency of power station burn versus ICE.
The local equation would be so much more favourable to EVs if IOM government could bite the massive financial bullet on historic sunk capex in the gas power station (dumb paid for 2 but got 1 deal) and gas pipe. The power station annual fixed overheads and green effect redundancy is daunting if IOMG genuinely aims to generate less than 50% of the power for its 85,000 population from carbon sources. We are blessed with plenty of consistent wind and easy locations to erect turbines, but the legacy cost sunk in carbon generation assets is like a ton of lead tied around its balls. So IOMG only pays sufficient lip service to renewable sources for nominal respectability - but follows up with no substance through EV grants, net metering, micro generation schemes, wind farms, solar farms, attractive feed in tariffs etc.
I have suggested to a Minister that he should campaign for re-election on placing a skybrator generator in every Manx front garden; but perhaps he would be more supportive if the shape was different https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/1...
So until the system changes, I see little benefit of buying an EV on the Isle of Man unless I drive it full circle every day to rack up pointless kms....which itself would be wasteful. However, I still applaud others in different circumstances who have adopted EVs.
The local equation would be so much more favourable to EVs if IOM government could bite the massive financial bullet on historic sunk capex in the gas power station (dumb paid for 2 but got 1 deal) and gas pipe. The power station annual fixed overheads and green effect redundancy is daunting if IOMG genuinely aims to generate less than 50% of the power for its 85,000 population from carbon sources. We are blessed with plenty of consistent wind and easy locations to erect turbines, but the legacy cost sunk in carbon generation assets is like a ton of lead tied around its balls. So IOMG only pays sufficient lip service to renewable sources for nominal respectability - but follows up with no substance through EV grants, net metering, micro generation schemes, wind farms, solar farms, attractive feed in tariffs etc.
I have suggested to a Minister that he should campaign for re-election on placing a skybrator generator in every Manx front garden; but perhaps he would be more supportive if the shape was different https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/1...
So until the system changes, I see little benefit of buying an EV on the Isle of Man unless I drive it full circle every day to rack up pointless kms....which itself would be wasteful. However, I still applaud others in different circumstances who have adopted EVs.
Worth noting that natural gas is considerably easier to extract and transport than petrol and requires vastly less refining.
However you are right - buying a new car is not an environmentally sound thing to do. It's not really an environmentally sound thing to do anywhere, but the numbers will be even more stacked against it somewhere with such a carbon intensive energy mix.
However you are right - buying a new car is not an environmentally sound thing to do. It's not really an environmentally sound thing to do anywhere, but the numbers will be even more stacked against it somewhere with such a carbon intensive energy mix.
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