Can you inject soul/passion into non ICE cars
Discussion
It seems day after day on PH news it’s a flurry of EVs from SUVs mostly and odd hypercar.... none so far have got me massively interested.
Driving a couple of different cars this week the feel, noise are important to me as an enthusiast but I accept the greater world doesn’t care.
So within the new rules.... can a sense of feel, occasion, fun, be injected into an EV? How? And who will be first to do it?
Or is it just soul less box after soulless box with only shape and speed being different...
Driving a couple of different cars this week the feel, noise are important to me as an enthusiast but I accept the greater world doesn’t care.
So within the new rules.... can a sense of feel, occasion, fun, be injected into an EV? How? And who will be first to do it?
Or is it just soul less box after soulless box with only shape and speed being different...
I think that depends on you and your preferences more than the cars. For me modern ICE drive-trains (mainstream ones at least) are mostly utterly lacking in character, or if they have character it's of the contrived or downright obnoxious type, so I don't see EVs as a step backwards in that regard.
In terms of the rest of the experience there's no real reason they should be very much different from ICE vehicles.
For me "soul" is already pretty much solely the preserve of classics, with a few notable (usually rather expensive) modern exceptions.
In terms of the rest of the experience there's no real reason they should be very much different from ICE vehicles.
For me "soul" is already pretty much solely the preserve of classics, with a few notable (usually rather expensive) modern exceptions.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 28th April 21:28
Well yes it can, but it will not be the same "passion/Soul" as an ICE car.
Trying to make EV's perform and feel like an ICE is wrong in my book. Clean sheet of paper, so design it with the future in mind not last year.
Agree current cars are a tad difficult to get excited about and I suspect with many diverting R&D into EV's we may have already seen the best.
Trying to make EV's perform and feel like an ICE is wrong in my book. Clean sheet of paper, so design it with the future in mind not last year.
Agree current cars are a tad difficult to get excited about and I suspect with many diverting R&D into EV's we may have already seen the best.
An iPhone/cheap Korean equivalent doesn’t have any soul but most people have one.
I think cars are going the same way. They’ll all be self driving before we know it so it doesn’t really matter, just transportation devices.
Hopefully we’ll be allowed to trailer our old ICE cars to tracks for a bit of fun, or they will develop a synthetic fuel with zero pollutants. But there will still be the issue of sharing roads with self driven cars and the risks will become uninsurable.
Enjoy them for the next 15 or 20 years, by which time augmented reality will be so good you’ll be driving a 917K around Le Mans whilst your soulless robotic s
tbox drives you to work.
I think cars are going the same way. They’ll all be self driving before we know it so it doesn’t really matter, just transportation devices.
Hopefully we’ll be allowed to trailer our old ICE cars to tracks for a bit of fun, or they will develop a synthetic fuel with zero pollutants. But there will still be the issue of sharing roads with self driven cars and the risks will become uninsurable.
Enjoy them for the next 15 or 20 years, by which time augmented reality will be so good you’ll be driving a 917K around Le Mans whilst your soulless robotic s
tbox drives you to work.markcoopers said:
Well yes it can, but it will not be the same "passion/Soul" as an ICE car.
Trying to make EV's perform and feel like an ICE is wrong in my book. Clean sheet of paper, so design it with the future in mind not last year.
Agree current cars are a tad difficult to get excited about and I suspect with many diverting R&D into EV's we may have already seen the best.
Agree an attempt at ICE replication would be bad and definitely embrace future..... but there is just no variety.... for example the scream at the top end of a VTEC engine, the rumble of a V8, turbo chargers or super chargers all offering differences some love some hate.Trying to make EV's perform and feel like an ICE is wrong in my book. Clean sheet of paper, so design it with the future in mind not last year.
Agree current cars are a tad difficult to get excited about and I suspect with many diverting R&D into EV's we may have already seen the best.
EV so linear.... a Tesla, Etron etc etc offer same experience with different design/charging options.
I guess I’m hoping something interesting will be on offer soon!..... I understand Porsche are trying to inject life into an EV cayman... with difficulty
A lot of ICE vehicles have no soul/passion, and a lot of buyers clearly don't care much about it, look at how many diesels there are in daily use.
An entertaining car can still be built with an EV power train. If most aren't, that just reflects that the majority of normal cars are fairly mundane, too.
Plenty of classic EV conversions about that seem fun, and you can still keep your petrol cars.
An entertaining car can still be built with an EV power train. If most aren't, that just reflects that the majority of normal cars are fairly mundane, too.
Plenty of classic EV conversions about that seem fun, and you can still keep your petrol cars.
I’ve got an EV now and I enjoy it. The instant response is enjoyable to use and physics hasn’t changed so you can accelerate, brake and corner like an ice car and get the same sensations.
Obviously there’s no noise to speak of and that’s a big minus. But it’s not the end of the world imho.
Obviously there’s no noise to speak of and that’s a big minus. But it’s not the end of the world imho.
I know they don’t really need it, but I wonder what a single electric motor driving through a 5 speed box to a rear LSD-equipped axle would be like. Imagine Ginetta G40 with plenty of interactivity. It would give some rise and fall in tone with each gear, a sense the motor is working against something the driver has a control choice over, rather than an increasing pitch whine to max speed.
To me there’s not much fun in a motor at each wheel, software controlled, super dynamic point and squirt EV capability. Needs to be a bit more of a classic experience with an impression of control effect and interactivity.
To me there’s not much fun in a motor at each wheel, software controlled, super dynamic point and squirt EV capability. Needs to be a bit more of a classic experience with an impression of control effect and interactivity.
I guess that is dependent on the evolution of battery technology, weight and the way in which the power can be delivered. If these are addressed, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to create a car analogous to the Swift Sport (to name but one example). Light-weight with a competent chassis and battery cells providing a low centre of gravity would be a win.
As for larger cars, I really don't know. Part of the charm of an AMG V8 is rumbling along at slow speeds with the knowledge of what you can deploy at a moment's notice. With that noise gone, there isn't much to talk about as far as theatricality goes.
Having said all that, I'm very partial to the BMW 335d (and I'd probably love the 340d/550d but I haven't driven them). The allure of a big BMW 6-cylinder diesel is that quiet ultra-competence when faced with a 2-3 hour M4/M25 stretch (and I do think they have a decent noise to boot). There is potential for EVs to make inroads here. That might not be soul or passion, but it definitely satiates my needs/desires on one level.
As for larger cars, I really don't know. Part of the charm of an AMG V8 is rumbling along at slow speeds with the knowledge of what you can deploy at a moment's notice. With that noise gone, there isn't much to talk about as far as theatricality goes.
Having said all that, I'm very partial to the BMW 335d (and I'd probably love the 340d/550d but I haven't driven them). The allure of a big BMW 6-cylinder diesel is that quiet ultra-competence when faced with a 2-3 hour M4/M25 stretch (and I do think they have a decent noise to boot). There is potential for EVs to make inroads here. That might not be soul or passion, but it definitely satiates my needs/desires on one level.
I do agree that a car is more than the sum of the parts - its all about the interaction, touch points and mechanical aspect of what they provide. So yeah, an EV will always struggle to replicate this. However, there are things that we can do though. We are seeing some manufacturers trying to introduce something to bring the involvement and passion.
I use one example with the HD Livewire motorcycle - while stationary, it will pulse slightly to remind you that the engine is on. Ok, its a HD and thats part of the 'story' for them, but there are options and ideas on how these manufacturers can introduce things to bring passion and soul to EV's!
Additionally, I am still really impressed with our i3. Its a bit 'golf cart' like, but it really does have that BMW feel. It feels RWD, has fun handling and they engineered it to be punchy and swift. Its not got a manual gearbox and straight 6 engine for obvious reasons, but it makes up for it in other areas with fun handling and a very direct steering (and amazing turning circle). Its certainly fun and clearly shows that the engineers can engineer things into the vehicle to bring something different to the mix.
I am really interested to see how different brands will engineer things going forward though. With full (electronics & programming) control of many aspects of a vehicle and its dynamics, the engineers can pretty much do anything they want. Its not all about 0-60 sprint times, but how the car feels & behaves. They might not have the noise and interaction, but there are other things that they can do and inject that 'brand values' into the car. I am actually looking forward to seeing what they can do over the next few years and what innovations they can bring.
And just to reiterate though - I am sick and tired of the race for 0-60 times. Its boring. Yeah, I know, that probably goes against a lot of whole point of EV's for some. But sub 7 seconds is swift. Less than 5 is getting damn quick and once you are in the 4's it is becoming pretty pointless on the public road. Now, make a car feel like its special. Bring interaction, fun handling and some sparks of style and entertainment - now we are talking! The Golf Mk2 GTI was far from the fastest hot hatch in its time. But it was a great handling and fun car to drive. Why cant we have more of this, which happens to have an EV powertrain? Now thats got to be something we can get behind?
I use one example with the HD Livewire motorcycle - while stationary, it will pulse slightly to remind you that the engine is on. Ok, its a HD and thats part of the 'story' for them, but there are options and ideas on how these manufacturers can introduce things to bring passion and soul to EV's!
Additionally, I am still really impressed with our i3. Its a bit 'golf cart' like, but it really does have that BMW feel. It feels RWD, has fun handling and they engineered it to be punchy and swift. Its not got a manual gearbox and straight 6 engine for obvious reasons, but it makes up for it in other areas with fun handling and a very direct steering (and amazing turning circle). Its certainly fun and clearly shows that the engineers can engineer things into the vehicle to bring something different to the mix.
I am really interested to see how different brands will engineer things going forward though. With full (electronics & programming) control of many aspects of a vehicle and its dynamics, the engineers can pretty much do anything they want. Its not all about 0-60 sprint times, but how the car feels & behaves. They might not have the noise and interaction, but there are other things that they can do and inject that 'brand values' into the car. I am actually looking forward to seeing what they can do over the next few years and what innovations they can bring.
And just to reiterate though - I am sick and tired of the race for 0-60 times. Its boring. Yeah, I know, that probably goes against a lot of whole point of EV's for some. But sub 7 seconds is swift. Less than 5 is getting damn quick and once you are in the 4's it is becoming pretty pointless on the public road. Now, make a car feel like its special. Bring interaction, fun handling and some sparks of style and entertainment - now we are talking! The Golf Mk2 GTI was far from the fastest hot hatch in its time. But it was a great handling and fun car to drive. Why cant we have more of this, which happens to have an EV powertrain? Now thats got to be something we can get behind?
The issue for me is nothing to do with ICE vs EV, and everything to do with the intrinsic link between "character" and "flaws". As humans, our flaws are what gives us our unique characters, and cars are the same.
Take possibly one of the most characterful cars ever made, the classic Landrover Defender. it was horribly flawed. You got in, banged your head on the low roof, realised you have to slump behind the wheel to be able to see out of the screen, the wipers are terrible, there's nowhere for your right arm to go, and mostly it'll break, and therefore need continuous attention in order to keep it generally working. But those flaws give the car a character beyond most others. To fail is a most human of traits, and it's something, intrinsically we fall in love with, and are captivated by.
I can remember with perfect clarity one drive from around 25 years ago, when my Renault 5 turbo cracked it's turbo oil feed pipe and i had to drive back from Reading by simply buying about 20 litres of the cheapest possible engine oil and pouring it into the engine every 10 minutes to replace that leaking out. And yet i can't even remember another drive from that same year where nothing went wrong, where i just drove to where i was going without issue.
Modern cars are simply too good, too efficient, too well engineered and optimised and as a result we fail to fall for them.
So, if we want more characterful cars, then we must once again sacrifice goodness and make sh*t cars once more :-)
Take possibly one of the most characterful cars ever made, the classic Landrover Defender. it was horribly flawed. You got in, banged your head on the low roof, realised you have to slump behind the wheel to be able to see out of the screen, the wipers are terrible, there's nowhere for your right arm to go, and mostly it'll break, and therefore need continuous attention in order to keep it generally working. But those flaws give the car a character beyond most others. To fail is a most human of traits, and it's something, intrinsically we fall in love with, and are captivated by.
I can remember with perfect clarity one drive from around 25 years ago, when my Renault 5 turbo cracked it's turbo oil feed pipe and i had to drive back from Reading by simply buying about 20 litres of the cheapest possible engine oil and pouring it into the engine every 10 minutes to replace that leaking out. And yet i can't even remember another drive from that same year where nothing went wrong, where i just drove to where i was going without issue.
Modern cars are simply too good, too efficient, too well engineered and optimised and as a result we fail to fall for them.
So, if we want more characterful cars, then we must once again sacrifice goodness and make sh*t cars once more :-)
Max_Torque said:
So, if we want more characterful cars, then we must once again sacrifice goodness and make sh*t cars once more :-)
I agree absolutely. But sacrifice what we have to go back to the days of the Maestro, Marina and other crap like that? Argh, not sure I am happy to do that... ;-)Maybe an ev with the batteries centralized in the tub a bit more to lower the polar moment of inertia, skinny Tyres and something like Ferrari’s side slip control to limit and meter out the resultant oversteer. Controllable slip over ultimate performance would be a nice change of pace. It could be good fun. Maybe even stick a load of weight over the front axle to give it lively and approachable handling.
Max_Torque said:
Modern cars are simply too good, too efficient, too well engineered and optimised and as a result we fail to fall for them.
So, if we want more characterful cars, then we must once again sacrifice goodness and make sh*t cars once more :-)
Great point and EVs makes it even worse because everything from a £5k used Leaf to a £120k Taycan essentially has the same 'perfect' drivetrain, instant torque, butter smooth power delivery.So, if we want more characterful cars, then we must once again sacrifice goodness and make sh*t cars once more :-)
Bizarrely one thing that makes me love our Tesla so much more than our Lexus is the unknown....what will break today? Will the door not work again? The V12 battery must be due to fail? Whats that weird fan noise, is the HVAC system about to implode? Where as the Lexus is so competent and reliable I was bored of it within 1 week of ownership.
Lucky most normal people want their cars boring, reliable, and good. So EVs for most people are fantastic upgrades.
I would like a DC2 Teg in the garage, but pigs will fly before I get the OK for that to happen. So instead I'll stick to these things. So much more road feel, you literally feel ever pot hole even pebble on the road, when a tractor goes past and kicks up all the cow poo compacted on the roads you can literally taste the countryside in your mouth.....It
What's really amazing is on a wet bit of tarmac its actually harder for me to put the power down (sub 500watts) on my pedal bike without sliding/wheel spin versus stamping on the loud pedal in my 2.5 ton SUV with 300KW on tap. The first time I get back in the car after a few days on the bike really makes me really appreciate the amazing tyre/suspension/power technology of morden cars.
kambites said:
I think that depends on you and your preferences more than the cars. For me modern ICE drive-trains (mainstream ones at least) are mostly utterly lacking in character, or if they have character it's of the contrived or downright obnoxious type, so I don't see EVs as a step backwards in that regard.
This.The newer M5's and even 911's just don't have anything you could identify as "soul" or "passion". Fake noise, driver aids and 4wd...
Get an oldtimer or a bike.
Thanks to my experience in the Twizy, I hold hopes for this kind of car. Nimble and characterful design. But in the end, as a car, pretty s
t.
The Twizy is a hoot to drive without ever breaking the speed limit. It predates just about every EV out there, is cheap and cost peanuts to run.
But again, as a car, flawed and thus not that popular.
The loss of the ICE noise for me is greatly compensated by everything else you hear, the wheels on the road, the electric whine, the steering rack. I see it as the loss of body panels on the Arial Atom allows you to see how the rest of the car works. Now for the most part ICE noise is a distraction. Great in a tunnel every once in a while but tedious after 5 minutes of driving.
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 29th April 08:20
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