Holy Grail - Battery technology
Discussion
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05...
the amount of work being carried out on battery research will bring us what we seek. It is headlines like this that make great reading. Imagine a battery that can take a charge as fast as you can give it. And have the ability to provide a longer range. it would be the game changer in as far as providing the solution to range anxiety.
Electric cars are the way forward, battery providing the storage. at a swipe it makes the other alternatives redundant.
the amount of work being carried out on battery research will bring us what we seek. It is headlines like this that make great reading. Imagine a battery that can take a charge as fast as you can give it. And have the ability to provide a longer range. it would be the game changer in as far as providing the solution to range anxiety.
Electric cars are the way forward, battery providing the storage. at a swipe it makes the other alternatives redundant.
Promising looking things like this come up every couple of months, and claims that they will be in producion in a few months or years is not unusual. Sadly very few of them seem to come to fruition, which is why we're still using Lithium Ion cells in just about everything... maybe this one will be different...
So far, it has been optimisations in packaging and architecture that have delivered the significant energy density and cost improvements that have made modern EVs viable.
The actual cell chemistry has shown some gains, but really the big win has been in learning to use those cells in the best way. ie what charge rates, what temperatures, how to mount and connect them, what the BMS should look like and do.
As we move towards generation 3 EVs and true volume production, i see no direct change in that approach for the next couple of years, but the important factor is that the headroom is theroretically there. Actual cell level energy density improvement of over 150% , if that is in conjunction with less or the same cost per unit energy strorage, will push EVs into a completely un-assailable position in terms of user convience, performance and efficiency in the passenger car market.
Lots of people have demostrated these sorts of gains on the bench, but until the like of Panasonic release those cells in volume it's irrelevant (today, Panasonic for example won't even bother answering the phone until you have a cell requirement of several tens of GWh per annum!
The actual cell chemistry has shown some gains, but really the big win has been in learning to use those cells in the best way. ie what charge rates, what temperatures, how to mount and connect them, what the BMS should look like and do.
As we move towards generation 3 EVs and true volume production, i see no direct change in that approach for the next couple of years, but the important factor is that the headroom is theroretically there. Actual cell level energy density improvement of over 150% , if that is in conjunction with less or the same cost per unit energy strorage, will push EVs into a completely un-assailable position in terms of user convience, performance and efficiency in the passenger car market.
Lots of people have demostrated these sorts of gains on the bench, but until the like of Panasonic release those cells in volume it's irrelevant (today, Panasonic for example won't even bother answering the phone until you have a cell requirement of several tens of GWh per annum!
kambites said:
Promising looking things like this come up every couple of months, and claims that they will be in producion in a few months or years is not unusual. Sadly very few of them seem to come to fruition, which is why we're still using Lithium Ion cells in just about everything... maybe this one will be different...
Exactly this.Ever since EVs have been a thing (10 years +) there have been frequent reports/studies/papers etc just like above that have promised the Earth. 10 years later, nothing. To be honest I’m astonished with all the battery research money invested over the past 10 years that there has been so little progress. Even the underlying battery energy density is barely changed, only really battery packaging/management and cooling has improved significantly.
We really do need something to make the next big step IMO, so yes fingers crossed for the above....but I expect a similar story will be along in 2/4/6/12/24 months.
the limiting factor for more widespread uptake of electric vehicles is .............................. Halfords!
the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
Tye Green said:
the limiting factor for more widespread uptake of electric vehicles is .............................. Halfords!
the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
What are you talking about?the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
Are you seriously advocating a car that does 5 miles on a charge?
Green1man said:
Exactly this.
Ever since EVs have been a thing (10 years +) there have been frequent reports/studies/papers etc just like above that have promised the Earth. 10 years later, nothing. To be honest I’m astonished with all the battery research money invested over the past 10 years that there has been so little progress. Even the underlying battery energy density is barely changed, only really battery packaging/management and cooling has improved significantly.
We really do need something to make the next big step IMO, so yes fingers crossed for the above....but I expect a similar story will be along in 2/4/6/12/24 months.
Give it formula 1 teams.Ever since EVs have been a thing (10 years +) there have been frequent reports/studies/papers etc just like above that have promised the Earth. 10 years later, nothing. To be honest I’m astonished with all the battery research money invested over the past 10 years that there has been so little progress. Even the underlying battery energy density is barely changed, only really battery packaging/management and cooling has improved significantly.
We really do need something to make the next big step IMO, so yes fingers crossed for the above....but I expect a similar story will be along in 2/4/6/12/24 months.
Tell them the battery has to have specific volume, weight and capacity limits, but the test for the last aspect is useless so you'll be relying on trust that they won't cheat.
Give em a week...
Green1man said:
Exactly this.
Ever since EVs have been a thing (10 years +) there have been frequent reports/studies/papers etc just like above that have promised the Earth. 10 years later, nothing. To be honest I’m astonished with all the battery research money invested over the past 10 years that there has been so little progress. Even the underlying battery energy density is barely changed, only really battery packaging/management and cooling has improved significantly.
We really do need something to make the next big step IMO, so yes fingers crossed for the above....but I expect a similar story will be along in 2/4/6/12/24 months.
Add over 20 years to that - they've been looking for better alternatives to Lithium batteries since before they started using them in mobile phones due to laptops (and when in phones there was meant to be an even bigger push).Ever since EVs have been a thing (10 years +) there have been frequent reports/studies/papers etc just like above that have promised the Earth. 10 years later, nothing. To be honest I’m astonished with all the battery research money invested over the past 10 years that there has been so little progress. Even the underlying battery energy density is barely changed, only really battery packaging/management and cooling has improved significantly.
We really do need something to make the next big step IMO, so yes fingers crossed for the above....but I expect a similar story will be along in 2/4/6/12/24 months.
ChocolateFrog said:
Tye Green said:
the limiting factor for more widespread uptake of electric vehicles is .............................. Halfords!
the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
What are you talking about?the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
Are you seriously advocating a car that does 5 miles on a charge?
Stories like the one in the OP are usually as a result of PR either by academic researchers looking for new or renewed grant funding (press coverage is used by funders as a proxy for impact), or pre-profit start ups heading into a funding round.
Not to say that someone won't come up with a new big idea in batteries eventually but press coverage of these stories is rarely related to their technological significance.
Not to say that someone won't come up with a new big idea in batteries eventually but press coverage of these stories is rarely related to their technological significance.
ChocolateFrog said:
Tye Green said:
the limiting factor for more widespread uptake of electric vehicles is .............................. Halfords!
the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
What are you talking about?the average journey in the uk is 8 miles but the great majority of cars travel less than 5 miles per day, many of them just 1 or 2 miles to the shops and back.
a typical electric vehicle does about 5 miles per kWh which is the capacity of a single large 12v x 80Ah lead-acid battery which are about £150. if they were able to sell loads of them the cost would surely be less.
plug it in overnight on a domestic 13A socket when the grid's quiet (normal battery charger required).
the problem is that Halfords, as largest retailer of batteries, could clean-up in this market but currently, they are only offering batteries in 12v (2-year warranty) . they could offer higher voltage batteries to suit whatever is required for a particular vehicle's system. Why not fit 2 of them if you’re a heavy user or might want to go to the shops twice a day?
this would save the cost of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars which seems to add £5-£10k to the cost of the car. no need for battery tech to improve for most folk!
Are you seriously advocating a car that does 5 miles on a charge?
The best EVs do about 4 miles per kWh
The battery therefore needs to be about 10kwh.. which is where hybrids are, hardly a surprise that’s why they’ve pushed for it in the regs/tax breaks etc
Apart from that..,
Edited by Heres Johnny on Tuesday 25th May 08:19
The basic li-ion chemistry that we use today was first demoed in the 80s, insanely expensive in the 90s and early 2000s, and is now just “reasonably priced”. Over that time, capacity has increased a bit, durability has increased a lot, and the ability to make weird form factors has improved. With all that, the Tesla S has a battery pack that is literally constructed out of the cells that used to be in laptops in about 2010. 18650s, thousands of them.
Batteries are one of those intractable problems where you can’t have everything at the same time. You want high energy density, so you want less “battery mechanical bits”. You want longevity, so you want more solid “battery mechanical bits”. You want it to be cheap, but most of the solutions to the previous problems involve exotic (expensive) materials.
If something is in a lab today, it will probably take 20 years to get into production at scale. People like Musk wouldn’t be building battery gigafactories if they thought some fundamental change was looming.
Batteries are one of those intractable problems where you can’t have everything at the same time. You want high energy density, so you want less “battery mechanical bits”. You want longevity, so you want more solid “battery mechanical bits”. You want it to be cheap, but most of the solutions to the previous problems involve exotic (expensive) materials.
If something is in a lab today, it will probably take 20 years to get into production at scale. People like Musk wouldn’t be building battery gigafactories if they thought some fundamental change was looming.
Heres Johnny said:
Average car does about 12k miles which 30 miles a day.
The best EVs do about 4 miles per kWh
The battery therefore needs to be about 10kwh.. which is where hybrids are, hardly a surprise that’s why they’ve pushed for it in the regs/tax breaks etc
Apart from that..,
UK average is closer to 7k apparently, and across Europe mileages have been falling pretty consistently for the past decade. We just don't drive as far as we used to.The best EVs do about 4 miles per kWh
The battery therefore needs to be about 10kwh.. which is where hybrids are, hardly a surprise that’s why they’ve pushed for it in the regs/tax breaks etc
Apart from that..,
Edited by Heres Johnny on Tuesday 25th May 08:19
https://www.odyssee-mure.eu/publications/efficienc...
Agree the suggestion above is crazy but I also struggle with the constant talk that city cars need 200+ miles and larger cars 400 miles in order to be useful. All it does is adds cost/weight and reduce practicality for everyone as they are having to design cars around niche requirements.
If they managed to double power density tomorrow do you think manufacturers would fit a battery half the size/weight or double range for headlines instead?
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