ZipCharge Go for EV Cars
Discussion
t, my battery's flat" moments become more common.It would last about 30 seconds left on the street in London.
It all depends on the price - I suspect several thousand quid based on the fact that they are only talking about rental at the moment. Breakdown vans could have a 3-phase diesel genny in the back for half the price, and this could do multiple cars, not just one.
It all depends on the price - I suspect several thousand quid based on the fact that they are only talking about rental at the moment. Breakdown vans could have a 3-phase diesel genny in the back for half the price, and this could do multiple cars, not just one.
AyBee said:
Needs a way of plugging it in whilst leaving it in the car for it to really make any sense at all. Also, needs to be relatively inexpensive (it won't be).
This! £50/month subscription for something that gives you maybe 20 miles range seems barking to me, but at least if its on subscription they'll be able to send a new one out every week after it's been nicked.It's also an expensive solution to a problem for which there's already a solution if the government pulls it's finger out of it's arse and starts rolling out on street charging points.
RizzoTheRat said:
This! £50/month subscription for something that gives you maybe 20 miles range seems barking to me, but at least if its on subscription they'll be able to send a new one out every week after it's been nicked.
It's also an expensive solution to a problem for which there's already a solution if the government pulls it's finger out of it's arse and starts rolling out on street charging points.
The website “suggests” around the same cost as a home charger.It's also an expensive solution to a problem for which there's already a solution if the government pulls it's finger out of it's arse and starts rolling out on street charging points.
TheRainMaker said:
RizzoTheRat said:
This! £50/month subscription for something that gives you maybe 20 miles range seems barking to me, but at least if its on subscription they'll be able to send a new one out every week after it's been nicked.
It's also an expensive solution to a problem for which there's already a solution if the government pulls it's finger out of it's arse and starts rolling out on street charging points.
The website “suggests” around the same cost as a home charger.It's also an expensive solution to a problem for which there's already a solution if the government pulls it's finger out of it's arse and starts rolling out on street charging points.
If you only do 20 miles a day having it charge from a slow 13A socket is no more faff than charging it from a faster charger. But the whole thing seems way more faff than driving to a charging point.
Several news articles seem to reckon £49/month rental, which is 300 or so miles of fuel for a reasonably economical ICE car.
Several news articles seem to reckon £49/month rental, which is 300 or so miles of fuel for a reasonably economical ICE car.
Completely agree. Why would you not just go and top up when you do your shopping or stop off at a rapid charge point on your way home.
£49 is 122.5kWh of rapid charging (40p/kWh), at 4 miles per kWh, that's 490 miles per month or 16.3 miles per day, and that assumes that you're not paying for the energy to charge the battery pack. If you assume that that energy costs 7p/kWh, that calculation turns into 19.8 miles per day...doesn't seem like it's cost effective either...
£49 is 122.5kWh of rapid charging (40p/kWh), at 4 miles per kWh, that's 490 miles per month or 16.3 miles per day, and that assumes that you're not paying for the energy to charge the battery pack. If you assume that that energy costs 7p/kWh, that calculation turns into 19.8 miles per day...doesn't seem like it's cost effective either...
A fallible solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
At best it's a sort of emergency tool to lug from a flat to get some juice into a car so as to be able to reach an actual charger.
People expecting on street chargers to be installed by the government, paid for by the tax payer just so that they can somehow avoid refuelling remotely are set for the endless disappointment that features in the lives of those who think everyone else exists to pay their bills and wipe their arses.
A residential street charger isn't a viable business. It will at best only attract one or two customers a day and they will statistically just be topping up yet parking up for long periods. To monetise a street charger outside of a home would equate to a parking charge that such an individual would never be prepared to pay in order to simply park their car outside at the end of the day.
Around 40% of homes may not have private parking but these homes are also where the highest prevalence of non car ownership are. It's also where the poorest, ergo most price sensitive people live.
Firstly these people are far fewer in number than estimated, secondly they won't be switching to EV for a decade or much longer and thirdly not one of them will be willing or able to pay £5+ a day just to park outside their home.
For those who can't charge at home they will, when they finally switch to EV after being among the last to do so, simply refuel their cars remotely exactly as they currently do their petrol cars.
If you consider the example of central London, the consumer who doesn't have private parking and who does such tiny daily mileages is the exact user that the Govt wishes to surrender their car.
This is really just a booster pack for people who can afford to switch to EV early but not able to afford private parking and to just be used when their car has been left for a while and gone flat or on an anomalous occasion then they've parked up without enough juice because they couldn't be arsed to stick a bit of charge in when returning home because it's a drag.
Will they be nicked? I'm sure they'll be trackable, maybe even coded to a car? However, what we know about humanity is that there are people who will, can and do nick absolutely anything that isn't bolted down regardless of the clever anti theft tech involved.
Maybe they could make it multi use like ICE car boosters? Add some defibrillator cables? Maybe some speakers and disco lights? Or a home generator for when a polar bear chews through the power cables, or whatever it is that is supposed to be causing the impending Grid collapses that will end society as we know it?
At best it's a sort of emergency tool to lug from a flat to get some juice into a car so as to be able to reach an actual charger.
People expecting on street chargers to be installed by the government, paid for by the tax payer just so that they can somehow avoid refuelling remotely are set for the endless disappointment that features in the lives of those who think everyone else exists to pay their bills and wipe their arses.
A residential street charger isn't a viable business. It will at best only attract one or two customers a day and they will statistically just be topping up yet parking up for long periods. To monetise a street charger outside of a home would equate to a parking charge that such an individual would never be prepared to pay in order to simply park their car outside at the end of the day.
Around 40% of homes may not have private parking but these homes are also where the highest prevalence of non car ownership are. It's also where the poorest, ergo most price sensitive people live.
Firstly these people are far fewer in number than estimated, secondly they won't be switching to EV for a decade or much longer and thirdly not one of them will be willing or able to pay £5+ a day just to park outside their home.
For those who can't charge at home they will, when they finally switch to EV after being among the last to do so, simply refuel their cars remotely exactly as they currently do their petrol cars.
If you consider the example of central London, the consumer who doesn't have private parking and who does such tiny daily mileages is the exact user that the Govt wishes to surrender their car.
This is really just a booster pack for people who can afford to switch to EV early but not able to afford private parking and to just be used when their car has been left for a while and gone flat or on an anomalous occasion then they've parked up without enough juice because they couldn't be arsed to stick a bit of charge in when returning home because it's a drag.
Will they be nicked? I'm sure they'll be trackable, maybe even coded to a car? However, what we know about humanity is that there are people who will, can and do nick absolutely anything that isn't bolted down regardless of the clever anti theft tech involved.
Maybe they could make it multi use like ICE car boosters? Add some defibrillator cables? Maybe some speakers and disco lights? Or a home generator for when a polar bear chews through the power cables, or whatever it is that is supposed to be causing the impending Grid collapses that will end society as we know it?
DonkeyApple said:
A residential street charger isn't a viable business. It will at best only attract one or two customers a day and they will statistically just be topping up yet parking up for long periods. To monetise a street charger outside of a home would equate to a parking charge that such an individual would never be prepared to pay in order to simply park their car outside at the end of the day.
Try telling that to all the countries where they're successfully rolling them out. There's at least 8 or 9 twin charger points within about 100m of my place so far. When you buy an EV but don't have your own off street parking here, you let the council know so they can track how many on street chargers they need, and the fact that the companies are installing and running them suggests they're making money from it. If the UK want to phase out ICE in favour of BEV they're going to have to push things like this.Edited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 9th November 13:29
RizzoTheRat said:
Try telling that to all the countries where they're successfully rolling them out. There's at least 8 or 9 twin charger points within about 100m of my place so far. When you buy an EV but don't have your own off street parking here, you let the council know so they can track how many on street chargers they need, and the fact that the companies are installing and running them suggests they're making money from it. If the UK want to phase out ICE in favour of BEV they're going to have to push things like this.
He’s not saying they don’t exist, it is just that they are not a viable business (i.e. something that provides a return on investment). Right now, charge points are being subsidised by government or buried in the CSR column of company accounts. Edited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 9th November 13:29
If you actually said “I’m going to dig up the road, find some leccy, install a robust charge point and then maintain it” you’d have to charge an extraordinary amount of money to turn a profit.
This is actually the whole problem with chargers - they are a distress purchase for a small group of drivers. At the moment, every driver pays for the upkeep of the fuel network. In an EV world, 95% of the charging will be done at home, so persuading the network to turn a profit without massive subsidy is really hard.
As a simple thought experiment, on a bank holiday weekend, there will be massive demand for chargers at the far end of the M5. Thousands of people will leave London, belt down the M4 and need a top up. Who is going to pay for the stupendous amount of chargers that will be needed to avoid massive queues? Of course, for the rest of the year, your chargers will be largely idle, and your business model is about to be undermined by (alleged) battery improvements?
RizzoTheRat said:
Try telling that to all the countries where they're successfully rolling them out. There's at least 8 or 9 twin charger points within about 100m of my place so far. When you buy an EV but don't have your own off street parking here, you let the council know so they can track how many on street chargers they need, and the fact that the companies are installing and running them suggests they're making money from it. If the UK want to phase out ICE in favour of BEV they're going to have to push things like this.
They're really not. At the moment all you're seeing is a few platitudes with a little bit of taxpayer money. Edited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 9th November 13:29
What do you suspect the actual bill to a council is for installing a £1000 charger?
. Now picture your typical regional estate that has no off street parking and its inhabitants who currently park their not very valuable car for free every night. Do you imagine for one minute those people when they eventually switch in a decade or two's time will pay to park or opt to buy cheaper refuelling elsewhere? Now also imagine the possessive nature of these people over the land that isn't theirs outside their property. A massive roll out of residential charging is a red herring. It's not needed and the people who live by them can't afford them and unless every single residential parking place has a charger then it isn't just unviable economically but unworkable.
Charging for those who cannot home charge will be done remotely and be served by private enterprise. People will simply be topping up their cars where they park them away from home. The exact network that is already underway and expanding as EV ownership expands.
Refuelling will occur where it can best be monetised and therefor be cheapest to the consumer. The most expensive charging will be the charger right outside their home because it has the same infrastructure and maintenance cost but almost no customers, almost no turnover and almost no purchasing demand. The residents will simply and easily charge elsewhere where it is far cheaper to do so.
A charger that sits outside a residence might get a couple of customers a day at best, those customers will only be buying an hour or two of charging at best. An identical charger, probably with lower installation and maintenance costs at an office, a Tesco's car park or on the street outside shops will conversely have many customers through the day, be selling electricity continuously and so as a business unit can charge less and us such will be the units that get the business. They can also be subsidised by the landlord in order to attract either consumers just as shopping centre car parks currently do or in the case of office parking, to pay the employee a lower salary etc.
There is zero business case for filling residential streets with chargers which is precisely why it isn't happening and there are no plans for it to beyond a few added here and there to meet PR obligations.
It's already completely visible what is happening and how this market is evolving. The majority of car owners can home charge. These people are already switching where the tax benefits add up or there is an excess of income to indulge a consumer desire. That is the market for the next decade or more. Those who can't home charge aren't even being forced to switch and generally aren't and most can't due to obvious economic reasons. Those people will be catered for in due course by the commercial charging as detailed above and as is currently underway and visible to all of us when we go to the shops.
My point is that it is happening, just not in the UK. I completely agree that there are a lot of people who aren't going to be buying expensive BEV's in the near future, but they're not the only people living in terraced houses. A 3 bed mid terrace with no off road parking is €500k-€600k around here, and a lot of people living in them have Teslas, Kona's, ID3's etc and are using the on street chargers.
Yes there must be some sort of government subsidy for installing the chargers, but that comes down to what is the government trying to achieve? If they want to push people in to BEV's then they need to push the infrastructure that means people are more likely to buy them. Of course the bit that PH'ers won't like is that the funding from that presumably comes from tax on ICE cars.
I completely agree that there's a better business case for chargers at supermarkets or other destinations that will get more use, but how many threads do you see on here with people saying they'd never own a BEV as they don't have anywhere to charge it. Maybe on street chargers aren't needed for everyone, but if there are enough that people can charge at home maybe that'll mean some of them do buy a BEV and then realise they don't need to chare at home that often anyway.
Yes there must be some sort of government subsidy for installing the chargers, but that comes down to what is the government trying to achieve? If they want to push people in to BEV's then they need to push the infrastructure that means people are more likely to buy them. Of course the bit that PH'ers won't like is that the funding from that presumably comes from tax on ICE cars.
I completely agree that there's a better business case for chargers at supermarkets or other destinations that will get more use, but how many threads do you see on here with people saying they'd never own a BEV as they don't have anywhere to charge it. Maybe on street chargers aren't needed for everyone, but if there are enough that people can charge at home maybe that'll mean some of them do buy a BEV and then realise they don't need to chare at home that often anyway.
Edited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 9th November 15:03
RizzoTheRat said:
My point is that it is happening, just not in the UK. I completely agree that there are a lot of people who aren't going to be buying expensive BEV's in the near future, but they're not the only people living in terraced houses. A 3 bed mid terrace with no off road parking is €500k-€600k around here, and a lot of people living in them have Teslas, Kona's, ID3's etc and are using the on street chargers.
Yes there must be some sort of government subsidy for installing the chargers, but that comes down to what is the government trying to achieve? If they want to push people in to BEV's then they need to push the infrastructure that means people are more likely to buy them. Of course the bit that PH'ers won't like is that the funding from that presumably comes from tax on ICE cars.
Yup. If you consider the inner zones of London and other such conurbations you see a small skew where living in an apartment doesn't indicate lower incomes per se. For the most part, in those areas the street parking is also already monetised via resident's permits. However, the majority of people who have cars but do not have off street parking are very much price sensitive and so a subsidised charger at a commuting or shopping destination will be used before a more expensive charger outside their front door which they also have to enter into mortal combat with Gary who lives 8 doors down the street is also wanting at 2am because he has to drive to Mogadishu in the morning. Yes there must be some sort of government subsidy for installing the chargers, but that comes down to what is the government trying to achieve? If they want to push people in to BEV's then they need to push the infrastructure that means people are more likely to buy them. Of course the bit that PH'ers won't like is that the funding from that presumably comes from tax on ICE cars.
The simplest solution to ensuring that the charging infrastructure keeps pace with the very, very slow rate of EV adoption would be to instruct the EV vendors to pay to have a charger installed for every tenth EV that they sell.
We may want the government to draw up a map as to where we want these to be but we certainly don't want the government installing and maintaining them as no other entity on the planet has such a profound inability to pay sums that are magnitudes greater than are remotely justifiable. There was an article a while back that suggested Camden was paying over £20k for the chargers in Hampstead. Chargers which couldn't be used by the residents or visitors as they were perpetually used by Foxtons.
It's where cars are parked away from home that are to be the formal basis of the remote charging network in the U.K. and while that growth is now steadily underway as we can see when we go shopping the core of the network remains at locations that facilitate users who have home charging to enable them to cross the country on a whim should they do desire.
Let's also not forget that every driveway with a charger is also a potential charging point for someone who does not have a driveway. Again, something that's been around for years in places like London and will expand as the customer base does.
We just don't need to put t chargers outside houses any more than we've ever needed to put petrol pumps outside houses.
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