What’s the actual reason public chargers are so unreliable?
Discussion
The opinions expressed by many EV users are that the public charging infrastructure is unreliable.
I.e., many chargers simply don't work or don't work as expected.
This opinion is anecdotal so there is a chance that a few people who encounter a broken charger make more noise about it - but the purpose of this thread isn't to attract the ‘I’ve never had a problem’ response when clearly many people do; but to hypothesis that there is a problem / trend etc.
So I’m wondering what is the actual reason public chargers are unreliable? I would have thought the challenge was securing the land, planning permissions and laying the cables: as well as all the health and safety provision around high power electricity being handled by the public.
But once it is all up and running what seems to be so difficult about maintaining a consistent service?
Additionally I would have thought some / a lot of software problems with the charging infrastructure could be remedied remotely?
All thoughts welcome.
I.e., many chargers simply don't work or don't work as expected.
This opinion is anecdotal so there is a chance that a few people who encounter a broken charger make more noise about it - but the purpose of this thread isn't to attract the ‘I’ve never had a problem’ response when clearly many people do; but to hypothesis that there is a problem / trend etc.
So I’m wondering what is the actual reason public chargers are unreliable? I would have thought the challenge was securing the land, planning permissions and laying the cables: as well as all the health and safety provision around high power electricity being handled by the public.
But once it is all up and running what seems to be so difficult about maintaining a consistent service?
Additionally I would have thought some / a lot of software problems with the charging infrastructure could be remedied remotely?
All thoughts welcome.
For me, it’s not so much that they are unreliable but the fact that you need different apps to work them, depending who the provider is.
For this reason, I usually only use the Tesla supercharger as I know I can just pull up and plug in, and the occasional PodPoint charger at Tesco as I have the app.
I accept it is laziness on my part of not wanting to have lots of different apps but I don’t think I am alone.
For this reason, I usually only use the Tesla supercharger as I know I can just pull up and plug in, and the occasional PodPoint charger at Tesco as I have the app.
I accept it is laziness on my part of not wanting to have lots of different apps but I don’t think I am alone.
I think it all comes down to the complexity that the operators introduced.
The charger network have decided that they want to use Apps and the like to control charging. This means extra complexity for the end user, downloading and registering. A charger that needs a computer and network connection in it, and then a number of servers at the back end to deal with the app and the charger talking to each other.
With just that alone you've suddenly increased the complexity of the device that just needed to send power to the car. Now it's got a computer, needs a net connection, and a whole bunch of servers on the back end. Sure that can be made to work when you're Amazon and the like, but I'm guessing some of the operators are running the whole lot on a shoestring budget with tin pot servers the cleaner unplugs. And that's before you get to the raspberry pi budget like computer sitting in the charger.
They didn't need to, they could have simplified things greatly, but that's what they decided to do.
You then end up relying on a call center when things go wrong, that may again be understaffed leading to long wait times.
That's my guess as to why they're flakey, and yes I've experienced problems. Not most of the time granted, but some times.
The charger network have decided that they want to use Apps and the like to control charging. This means extra complexity for the end user, downloading and registering. A charger that needs a computer and network connection in it, and then a number of servers at the back end to deal with the app and the charger talking to each other.
With just that alone you've suddenly increased the complexity of the device that just needed to send power to the car. Now it's got a computer, needs a net connection, and a whole bunch of servers on the back end. Sure that can be made to work when you're Amazon and the like, but I'm guessing some of the operators are running the whole lot on a shoestring budget with tin pot servers the cleaner unplugs. And that's before you get to the raspberry pi budget like computer sitting in the charger.
They didn't need to, they could have simplified things greatly, but that's what they decided to do.
You then end up relying on a call center when things go wrong, that may again be understaffed leading to long wait times.
That's my guess as to why they're flakey, and yes I've experienced problems. Not most of the time granted, but some times.
phil4 said:
With just that alone you've suddenly increased the complexity of the device that just needed to send power to the car. Now it's got a computer, needs a net connection, and a whole bunch of servers on the back end. Sure that can be made to work when you're Amazon and the like, but I'm guessing some of the operators are running the whole lot on a shoestring budget with tin pot servers the cleaner unplugs
I'd wager most of it *is* running on Amazon (AWS). But I agree, it's still cr@p. This is the sort of thing the Government should have sorted out, by mandating standards.Theraveda said:
phil4 said:
With just that alone you've suddenly increased the complexity of the device that just needed to send power to the car. Now it's got a computer, needs a net connection, and a whole bunch of servers on the back end. Sure that can be made to work when you're Amazon and the like, but I'm guessing some of the operators are running the whole lot on a shoestring budget with tin pot servers the cleaner unplugs
I'd wager most of it *is* running on Amazon (AWS). But I agree, it's still cr@p. This is the sort of thing the Government should have sorted out, by mandating standards.Smart meters are just one example of the kind of mess we'd be in.
The IT industry in the UK needs a big kicking. way too many contractors spending more time shoring up the IR35 status than doing what's needed.
People just need to vote with their feet when one retailer is better than another.
OutInTheShed said:
The IT industry in the UK needs a big kicking. way too many contractors spending more time shoring up the IR35 status than doing what's needed.
A problem HMG created in the first place.OutInTheShed said:
People just need to vote with their feet when one retailer is better than another.
Not much use at 2AM when you're "running on fumes".All HMG had to do was mandate that all the charging suppliers *had* to interoperate. Otherwise we've years of this cr@p. Look at what's happening in streaming services ...
There was loads of government funding in the early days so it was a bit of a land grab for the networks to secure any sites that would have them. Ongoing maintenance was down to the networks and it’s expensive to have lots of suitable people on hand to repair so if an issue can’t be fixed with a remote reboot then it goes on a long backlog of jobs to do. Assuming they even know about it, a lot of issues go unreported as people just move on to another unit.
Rapid chargers complicated things that need lots of checks and failsafes because it’s delivering loads of power but the public need to use them with no special training and no supervision like a petrol station. Anything wrong and they need to stop rather than risk electrocuting someone or damaging a car. They’re outside exposed to sun and wind and rain, and worse that same public that may not put connectors back properly so they fill with water or get run over. There are dozens of car models, some of which can have “quirks” with communicating with the charger, often needing updates to either side to deal with it. Then add the extra complication of taking contactless payment rather than reading an RFID card. Apps were a solution to avoid the need for a special physical card for each network, before contactless really took off - although I still think they’re a nice fallback to have if a contactless reader is knackered.
What’s really needed is technicians going around checking all is well at their sites, giving units a clean and test, dealing with any minor jobs and getting major ones arranged. Only really hear of Instavolt and Tesla doing that though, and I don’t know if they’re keeping that up as the network expands.
Rapid chargers complicated things that need lots of checks and failsafes because it’s delivering loads of power but the public need to use them with no special training and no supervision like a petrol station. Anything wrong and they need to stop rather than risk electrocuting someone or damaging a car. They’re outside exposed to sun and wind and rain, and worse that same public that may not put connectors back properly so they fill with water or get run over. There are dozens of car models, some of which can have “quirks” with communicating with the charger, often needing updates to either side to deal with it. Then add the extra complication of taking contactless payment rather than reading an RFID card. Apps were a solution to avoid the need for a special physical card for each network, before contactless really took off - although I still think they’re a nice fallback to have if a contactless reader is knackered.
What’s really needed is technicians going around checking all is well at their sites, giving units a clean and test, dealing with any minor jobs and getting major ones arranged. Only really hear of Instavolt and Tesla doing that though, and I don’t know if they’re keeping that up as the network expands.
sjg said:
What’s really needed is technicians going around checking all is well at their sites, giving units a clean and test, dealing with any minor jobs and getting major ones arranged. Only really hear of Instavolt and Tesla doing that though, and I don’t know if they’re keeping that up as the network expands.
Yeah - I had a feeling this was a critical factor. Lots of startup coding / tech enthusiasm based on interfacing open technologies on the Cloud from a central location, remote support and simply too few boots on the ground. As it is all new and fast moving technology every issue requires time consuming troubleshooting and root cause analysis.
That said, when they read this, they’d (rightly) argue, if you wanted a proprietary fit for purpose well tested infrastructure then you’d have got it in 2055!
Almost all the issues I’ve had has seem to have been the handshake with the vehicle, something in there the charger doesn’t like.
I was 50 miles from home once with 15 miles range and could get neither of the two rapid Charge Place Scotland units to start, thank god for the helpline who remotely rebooted the unit for me
I was 50 miles from home once with 15 miles range and could get neither of the two rapid Charge Place Scotland units to start, thank god for the helpline who remotely rebooted the unit for me
It’s because there is no money in it.
Chargers are put in, and charging companies are set up on the back of massive government subsidy. They’re expensive and need maintenance. But there’s no subsidy for that, so no one does it properly. There’s no subsidy for the sort of bank holiday surge capacity that is needed on major routes.
Probably more than 95% of miles driven are charged from home. If petrol stations only supplied 5% of the travelled miles, they’d be s
t too.
Chargers are put in, and charging companies are set up on the back of massive government subsidy. They’re expensive and need maintenance. But there’s no subsidy for that, so no one does it properly. There’s no subsidy for the sort of bank holiday surge capacity that is needed on major routes.
Probably more than 95% of miles driven are charged from home. If petrol stations only supplied 5% of the travelled miles, they’d be s
t too.Another part of the problem are these companies’ obsessions with harvesting our data and selling it on to third parties to add value to what they are doing, hence the need for a plethora of clunky apps and needing to register multiple times, etc
In time, I’m hopeful some kind of standardisation will fall into place and the crap companies will go bust. Perhaps a bit more regulation from the government might help as most companies usually cannot be trusted to do the right thing for the consumer.
In time, I’m hopeful some kind of standardisation will fall into place and the crap companies will go bust. Perhaps a bit more regulation from the government might help as most companies usually cannot be trusted to do the right thing for the consumer.
georgeyboy12345 said:
Another part of the problem are these companies’ obsessions with harvesting our data and selling it on to third parties to add value to what they are doing, hence the need for a plethora of clunky apps and needing to register multiple times, etc
In time, I’m hopeful some kind of standardisation will fall into place and the crap companies will go bust. Perhaps a bit more regulation from the government might help as most companies usually cannot be trusted to do the right thing for the consumer.
They want to harvest your data because that’s the revenue stream. In time, I’m hopeful some kind of standardisation will fall into place and the crap companies will go bust. Perhaps a bit more regulation from the government might help as most companies usually cannot be trusted to do the right thing for the consumer.
rxe said:
It’s because there is no money in it.
Correct, I think over the next few years we will see a massive increase in the cost of reliable charging away from home.The simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
Fusion777 said:
Been covered above. In a nutshell, there haven’t been the investment levels. Big players haven’t been willing to go all in and commit because the market and returns haven’t been there. Should change in the near future if it isn’t already.
But … if I charge you enough per kWh to make it viable for me (the charger company), would you be interested in paying much more than you can get by home-charging. Those who can’t home-charge, will just keep and run-down an ICE. TheRainMaker said:
Correct, I think over the next few years we will see a massive increase in the cost of reliable charging away from home.
The simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
7kW chargers are for home/office use so not sure the math matters. And those rarely ever fail in my perhaps limited experience. They're quite uncomplicated by comparison with rapid chargers. The simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
I think you need to look at 150kW chargers if you want to do the business case for public charging and then it basically improves by a significant factor. The per kW cost is higher and you can churn out a lot more. Then I think you need to consider who actually makes money on fuelling or EV charging which is probably whoever is selling the coffee and the biscuits.
Still, I think the business case for public charging as a consumer is weak which perhaps translates to a poor business case for the providers of chargers too. It's a lot of faff in order to not save much over ICE. Which is why I tend to take one of the ICE alternatives in my fleet when going for a longer spin. EVs are great for the local stuff. Which is probably also why I'm looking at some PHEV's with larger batteries as a next car.
TheRainMaker said:
Correct, I think over the next few years we will see a massive increase in the cost of reliable charging away from home.
The simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
56kW x 8 hours = 448kWhThe simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
I think the mark up is somewhat more than 10p, but even that is £45 a day, 16 grand a year.
Since most people will do most of their charging at home, the market should bear a healthy mark up.
I expect some quiet sites are being subsidised by the busy ones.
OutInTheShed said:
TheRainMaker said:
Correct, I think over the next few years we will see a massive increase in the cost of reliable charging away from home.
The simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
56kW x 8 hours = 448kWhThe simple sums on a 7kW charger
Charger in use for 8 hours a day (which is unlikely) can deliver 56kW
56kW with a 10p markup on electric would be £5.60 per day (around 30p kW for the end user)
365 days a year gives you a return of £2044 per charger.
Once you have paid for the installation, land rent, insurance, on going maintance and payment system it is no wonder no one wants to maintain them.
I think the mark up is somewhat more than 10p, but even that is £45 a day, 16 grand a year.
Since most people will do most of their charging at home, the market should bear a healthy mark up.
I expect some quiet sites are being subsidised by the busy ones.
20440 x 10p = £2044.00
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