"It's not a £30K car, it's a £20K car with a £10K battery"
Discussion
"It's not a £30K car, it's a £20K car with a £10K battery"
I heard this quote somewhere recently, and I've started to think a bit (perhaps a bit too much) but the concept seems basically correct, even if the actual figures do vary.
Looking at the prices of cars where both version are offered, e.g.
Corsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
(Obviously can't really compare if there is no petrol alternative, like Tesla or Leaf.)
So, the problem is, it's no cheaper to run than a petrol car. If charging costs about £3 for 100 miles, and the battery costs £7 for 100 miles (i.e. your extra £8K to £9K ish lasts 120,000 miles ish) then that's a total of £10 for 100 miles.
Which is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
I heard this quote somewhere recently, and I've started to think a bit (perhaps a bit too much) but the concept seems basically correct, even if the actual figures do vary.
Looking at the prices of cars where both version are offered, e.g.
Corsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
(Obviously can't really compare if there is no petrol alternative, like Tesla or Leaf.)
So, the problem is, it's no cheaper to run than a petrol car. If charging costs about £3 for 100 miles, and the battery costs £7 for 100 miles (i.e. your extra £8K to £9K ish lasts 120,000 miles ish) then that's a total of £10 for 100 miles.
Which is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
As a company car driver EVs are a much better value proposition - literally a tenth of the personal tax burden. Plus if you’re lucky enough to have access to free charging at work, it’s personal transport that is virtually free! Then you get a new one every few years and you’re old one goes into the used car pool for second hand buyers, and the market pays what value they see fit.
M4cruiser said:
"It's not a £30K car, it's a £20K car with a £10K battery"
I heard this quote somewhere recently, and I've started to think a bit (perhaps a bit too much) but the concept seems basically correct, even if the actual figures do vary.
Looking at the prices of cars where both version are offered, e.g.
Corsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
(Obviously can't really compare if there is no petrol alternative, like Tesla or Leaf.)
So, the problem is, it's no cheaper to run than a petrol car. If charging costs about £3 for 100 miles, and the battery costs £7 for 100 miles (i.e. your extra £8K to £9K ish lasts 120,000 miles ish) then that's a total of £10 for 100 miles.
Which is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
In other news, there was a shocking revelation that new cars are expensive.I heard this quote somewhere recently, and I've started to think a bit (perhaps a bit too much) but the concept seems basically correct, even if the actual figures do vary.
Looking at the prices of cars where both version are offered, e.g.
Corsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
(Obviously can't really compare if there is no petrol alternative, like Tesla or Leaf.)
So, the problem is, it's no cheaper to run than a petrol car. If charging costs about £3 for 100 miles, and the battery costs £7 for 100 miles (i.e. your extra £8K to £9K ish lasts 120,000 miles ish) then that's a total of £10 for 100 miles.
Which is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
In fact motoring is 'quite expensive'.
Why not look at the depreciation of the whole car, or maybe lease costs, to get a reasonable picture of total cost over the period you expect to keep the car?
How may people are serious about buying a new Corsa today and keeping it for 120k miles?
90% will change it before 60k.
So depreciation, residual value and foretelling the future are important if you have a capital stake in the car.
Assuming seeking some arbitrary measure of 'best value' is an important aim, which I wouldn't take for granted.
Well I suppose my 80k SUV is in fact a 60k SUV with a £20k battery.
But if it was an ICE £60k SUV it would have an underpowered diesel lump dragging it around. It wouldn't keep pace off the lights with a 911. It wouldn't be as smooth, it wouldn't be as cheap to run or all the other EV benefits.
Once you factor in the benefits of the EV powertrain you pretty much have to spend at least as much on a none EV to approach the same overall performance - and you'll still lose out in terms of running costs.
Can anyone think of a £60k SUV that can match my iPace HSE in terms of actual 'car' for the money and also performance? I think you'd basically have to go with a Velar SVR (the same JLR kit/tech/materials etc) which is £85k to get the same sort of performance, but you'd still be stuffed in terms of running costs. Is there a single luxury SUV that can match the iPace on performance stats without costing at least as much? I can't think of one but I welcome being corrected.
Same deal at the other end of the spectrum. Cheap city run around EV's cost about 20-30% more than their ICE equivalents but they all tend to be nippier and nicer to drive and then cheaper to run which reclaims the extra initial cost.
In the end none of this should be surprising. Sure, batteries are expensive.. But in terms of powertrain options it's hard to beat the absolute efficiency and simplicity of a battery pack and motor. It's a better way to make a car move and the only way to get the same results in an ICE car requires fairly high capacity engine and TC, the complexity of which presents it's own costs.
But if it was an ICE £60k SUV it would have an underpowered diesel lump dragging it around. It wouldn't keep pace off the lights with a 911. It wouldn't be as smooth, it wouldn't be as cheap to run or all the other EV benefits.
Once you factor in the benefits of the EV powertrain you pretty much have to spend at least as much on a none EV to approach the same overall performance - and you'll still lose out in terms of running costs.
Can anyone think of a £60k SUV that can match my iPace HSE in terms of actual 'car' for the money and also performance? I think you'd basically have to go with a Velar SVR (the same JLR kit/tech/materials etc) which is £85k to get the same sort of performance, but you'd still be stuffed in terms of running costs. Is there a single luxury SUV that can match the iPace on performance stats without costing at least as much? I can't think of one but I welcome being corrected.
Same deal at the other end of the spectrum. Cheap city run around EV's cost about 20-30% more than their ICE equivalents but they all tend to be nippier and nicer to drive and then cheaper to run which reclaims the extra initial cost.
In the end none of this should be surprising. Sure, batteries are expensive.. But in terms of powertrain options it's hard to beat the absolute efficiency and simplicity of a battery pack and motor. It's a better way to make a car move and the only way to get the same results in an ICE car requires fairly high capacity engine and TC, the complexity of which presents it's own costs.
You can see why the manufacturers are struggling with EV's because they currently get all these bits for free when they make an ICE model:
crankcase
cylinder head
Head bolts and head gasket
inlet and exhaust valves
pistons
rods
bearings, cradle and caps
camshafts
lifters springs and caps
sump pan
oil pump
water pump
cam cover
VCT solenoids and phazers
Timing chain and tensioner
Fuel injectors
Fuel pump
Turbo charger
inlet manifold
exhaust manifold
Catalyst and Particulate filter
Exhaust system
Engine mounts
Engine control unit
engine wiring harness
EGR valves and plumbing
Engine sensors inc crank, cam, lamba, MAP, MAF, MAT
Electronic thottle body
Clean air duct
Intake air filter
Dirty air duct
Coolant radiator and pipework
Oil cooler modine
Crankcase breather system
Flywheel and clutch
Release bearing
Input shaft
gearbox casing
Mainshaft
layshaft
output shaft
Gear selector mech
Gear sets
Syncro hubs and dogs
Oil pump and filter
Trans oil cooler
Speed sensor
Propshaft and bearing
Fuel tank
Fuel lift pump
Carbon canister and control solenoid
Fuel filler pipework
;-)
And that's just straight off the top of my head, there are THOUSANDS of parts in a modern ICE and the only reason they are such a low cost is because we make millions of the things. When you apply the same mass production methods to BEVs they become cheaper to make than ICE because they are much simpler and can share many more of their basic components unchanged between models.......
crankcase
cylinder head
Head bolts and head gasket
inlet and exhaust valves
pistons
rods
bearings, cradle and caps
camshafts
lifters springs and caps
sump pan
oil pump
water pump
cam cover
VCT solenoids and phazers
Timing chain and tensioner
Fuel injectors
Fuel pump
Turbo charger
inlet manifold
exhaust manifold
Catalyst and Particulate filter
Exhaust system
Engine mounts
Engine control unit
engine wiring harness
EGR valves and plumbing
Engine sensors inc crank, cam, lamba, MAP, MAF, MAT
Electronic thottle body
Clean air duct
Intake air filter
Dirty air duct
Coolant radiator and pipework
Oil cooler modine
Crankcase breather system
Flywheel and clutch
Release bearing
Input shaft
gearbox casing
Mainshaft
layshaft
output shaft
Gear selector mech
Gear sets
Syncro hubs and dogs
Oil pump and filter
Trans oil cooler
Speed sensor
Propshaft and bearing
Fuel tank
Fuel lift pump
Carbon canister and control solenoid
Fuel filler pipework
;-)
And that's just straight off the top of my head, there are THOUSANDS of parts in a modern ICE and the only reason they are such a low cost is because we make millions of the things. When you apply the same mass production methods to BEVs they become cheaper to make than ICE because they are much simpler and can share many more of their basic components unchanged between models.......
M4cruiser said:
So, the problem is, it's no cheaper to run than a petrol car. If charging costs about £3 for 100 miles, and the battery costs £7 for 100 miles (i.e. your extra £8K to £9K ish lasts 120,000 miles ish) then that's a total of £10 for 100 miles.
Which is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
A typical electric car does around 3.5 ml/kWh, so 100 miles is 28 kWh of electricityWhich is about 60mpg in an ordinary car. Which can be done these days.
Most EV onwers charge typically at between 7 and 15 pence per kWh, so that 100 miles costs them between £1.96 and £4.20
A 60mpg car will use 1.67 gallons to do 100 miles, which today (£1.65 per litre uk average) is £12.49
You have included the depreciation of the BEVs battery over 120,000 miles, although your numbers are rubbish because you have assumed the battery is worthless once worn beyond automotive limits which is not the case, typical second life EV battery is worth around £3,000 today at 80% SoH but NOT included the depreciation of the ICE which just like the battery, wears out each and every time you run it and is pretty much worthless once worn because it is fairly useless in anything but its original application
Lets be clear:
a modern ICE passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
a modern BEV passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
There is no difference!
Except the BEV as mentioned the BEV has a very significant value once is has worn beyond automotive limits, and once replaced. which is a very easy job, the rest of that cars powertrain is likely to be able to do at least another 150,000 miles without issue because it has so few moving parts!
Monkeylegend said:
Max_Torque said:
Lets be clear:
a modern ICE passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
Mercedes need to get some new designers then, my last three ICE cars all did well over 300k, the last one still running well on 325k miles with it's current owner.a modern ICE passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
the "design life" is a fixed number used to specify a systems average durability. Some systems will fail before that point, some after wards, but when used in typical conditions, the design life would be expected to be reached, on average.
If you drove your ICEs carefully, looked after them well, then sure, they wil exceed their design life by a significant marging. Do the same for an BEV and guess what, it will also exceed its (identical) design life by a similar margin........
Monkeylegend said:
Mercedes need to get some new designers then, my last three ICE cars all did well over 300k, the last one still running well on 325k miles with it's current owner.
It’s 106k miles for the average scrapped car. They don’t last long at all. I think this will get longer with EVs. Max_Torque said:
.....
Lets be clear:
a modern ICE passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
a modern BEV passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
There is no difference!
Except the BEV as mentioned the BEV has a very significant value once is has worn beyond automotive limits, and once replaced. which is a very easy job, the rest of that cars powertrain is likely to be able to do at least another 150,000 miles without issue because it has so few moving parts!
1) In both cases the capital cost per mile is really quite a lot. Depreciation average 30p per mile?Lets be clear:
a modern ICE passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
a modern BEV passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles
There is no difference!
Except the BEV as mentioned the BEV has a very significant value once is has worn beyond automotive limits, and once replaced. which is a very easy job, the rest of that cars powertrain is likely to be able to do at least another 150,000 miles without issue because it has so few moving parts!
2) I don't believe 150k mile EVs will often get new battery packs, any more than 150k mile IC cars get refurbed.
THere will be exceptions, but most high mileage cars are a grubby pile of small time-served components and worn bits.
Lots of body electrics, steering, suspension etc will still be as unreliable after 15 years whatever the motor.
An EV is also not just a motor and a battery pack, it is a big system of control electronics full of components with limited lives.
In the first few generations of EVs many parts will be obsolete after not many years.
M4cruiser said:
Looking at the prices of cars where both version are offered, e.g.
Corsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
Don’t think a direct comparison workCorsa Petrol Auto: £18K, Electric £26K.
MG ZS Petrol £18K, MG ZS EV £27K.
Even if the offer the same equipment, there are still other varying factors.
0-60
Top speed
Power delivery etc
IMO ICE and EV should be in their separate own league. They are just so different in many ways. If cost saving is the only reason consider switching to EV, then EV proper just don’t suit them.
Edited by kurokawa on Tuesday 12th April 10:27
TheRainMaker said:
Max_Torque said:
Most EV onwers charge typically at between 7 and 15 pence per kWh, so that 100 miles costs them between £1.96 and £4.20
Some might but I bet most don't, just like me.29p per kWh at the moment...
£8.00ish now to do 100 miles in mine
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