EV Skateboard Platform future design impact?

[Moonpie21]

In my head there are advantages and disadvantages to this. I'll be honest, my rose tinted specs were only taken off last night.

Up until this point I have been quite excited to see what type/styles of EV can be produced and I guess they will eventually come as the market matures and manufacturers look for niches to fill, but as has been mentioned elsewhere they are even struggling to do this at the moment.

I love what Alpha show in terms of render etc: https://www.alphamotorinc.com/ but I don't think I will ever get to see one. I also love the BMW I3 and what that did (biased, I know, as I have one) in terms of showing what could be done with some smart thinking.

I also really like Tesla... all of their models for what they have done mainly forcing people to think differently, I admire the leap that they have created in terms of EV advancement, the end to end approach and the package that they offer. But as of last night I also hate them for what they are doing.

I'll explain a little more.

On the drive home I saw two or three model 3's, a testament to what they have achieved and what they offer. Now I have never been in love with the design or customisation of appearance, but I have accepted it and admired the model. But I found myself completely turned off from it last night it was like flicking a switch.

Now I get it was introduced in 2017 (just under 5 years ago and I don't know when/if they plan to replace) and it has been marginally visually refined over time, but it has basically stayed the same (granted the product as a whole is getting better, but it's not enough for me. I'm not the sort to keep buying a VW Golf so maybe it's a me thing). As it has become more common place the design and approach has really saddened me. I haven't realised it before, even though it has been said, these really seem to me to be outwardly the "white goods" of the automotive world.

Tesla success and by keeping the shell the same and not maximising the "skateboard" potential are they killing any hope of an innovative/interesting market? Will they just set the future by volume and others emulating them?

Maybe they will eventually sell their "skateboard" to coach builders, are they doing that now? Maybe I am naive and the future is a machine to get from A - B with no emotion, but ultimate usability. I think there will always be a market for a Morgan like low volume expensive emotional option. But I fear for my future, I think EV's are it but I'd love someone to rationally maintain my optimism for a varied market.

[Pixelpeep 135]

Moonpie21 said:

In my head there are advantages and disadvantages to this. I'll be honest, my rose tinted specs were only taken off last night.

Up until this point I have been quite excited to see what type/styles of EV can be produced and I guess they will eventually come as the market matures and manufacturers look for niches to fill, but as has been mentioned elsewhere they are even struggling to do this at the moment.

I love what Alpha show in terms of render etc: https://www.alphamotorinc.com/ but I don't think I will ever get to see one. I also love the BMW I3 and what that did (biased, I know, as I have one) in terms of showing what could be done with some smart thinking.

I also really like Tesla... all of their models for what they have done mainly forcing people to think differently, I admire the leap that they have created in terms of EV advancement, the end to end approach and the package that they offer. But as of last night I also hate them for what they are doing.

I'll explain a little more.

On the drive home I saw two or three model 3's, a testament to what they have achieved and what they offer. Now I have never been in love with the design or customisation of appearance, but I have accepted it and admired the model. But I found myself completely turned off from it last night it was like flicking a switch.

Now I get it was introduced in 2017 (just under 5 years ago and I don't know when/if they plan to replace) and it has been marginally visually refined over time, but it has basically stayed the same (granted the product as a whole is getting better, but it's not enough for me. I'm not the sort to keep buying a VW Golf so maybe it's a me thing). As it has become more common place the design and approach has really saddened me. I haven't realised it before, even though it has been said, these really seem to me to be outwardly the "white goods" of the automotive world.

Tesla success and by keeping the shell the same and not maximising the "skateboard" potential are they killing any hope of an innovative/interesting market? Will they just set the future by volume and others emulating them?

Maybe they will eventually sell their "skateboard" to coach builders, are they doing that now? Maybe I am naive and the future is a machine to get from A - B with no emotion, but ultimate usability. I think there will always be a market for a Morgan like low volume expensive emotional option. But I fear for my future, I think EV's are it but I'd love someone to rationally maintain my optimism for a varied market.

While we wait for mainstream to catch up, and if you have some spare cash for something special ...

https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

[SWoll]

Cars have a lifecycle and you'll see more of them on the road the further into that lifecycle they are. Not sure why you feel this has anything specifically to do with Tesla?

The market isn't yet big enough for for their to be the variety we see with ICE, but it will happen as we close in on 2030 as ICE is forced off the road and manufacturers need to build EV's to survive. Just look at Lotus.

Still early days, you can't expect too much IMHO.

[Kawasicki]

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

[TheDrownedApe]

Kawasicki said:

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

I suspect, but could be wrong, he means that the drive train is small and low. This allows the manufacturers to do what they want with the skin as they don't have to package in an engine/gearbox etc; ergo expect some zany car designs.

However they still need to adhere to passenger and pedestrain safety, and aero, which limits the design freedom.

[SWoll]

Kawasicki said:

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

Indeed. One would assume it would allow for a huge range of possibilities in comparison to an ICE drivetrain limited by requirements for engine location, gearbox, propshafts, diffs, exhausts etc?

[SWoll]

TheDrownedApe said:

However they still need to adhere to passenger and pedestrain safety, and aero, which limits the design freedom.

So nothing to do with EV's or the skateboard platform then?

The Model 3 is a great example of a ground up EV design that takes advantage of the inherent benefits of EV. Cab forward so lots of interior space in comparison to it's external dimensions, very low bonnet line so fantastic visibility and aero etc. neither of which would have been possible in a comparable front engined, AWD ICE car.

[Moonpie21]

SWoll said:

Not sure why you feel this has anything specifically to do with Tesla?

Not specifically to do with Tesla, but an example I can see and draw some thoughts from. The Model 3 is I think the number one selling EV in the UK and I think EV's were the highest type of newly registered car in the UK last set of stats I saw...

To me this says they have the volume to manipulate the direction of the market, more people are choosing to buy them for the package that they offer over the style of their offering. I appreciate style is subjective and there is probably an element of creating a "brand" but to me and I am guessing (wrongly, but I have nothing else to go on apart from general trends) to many others as well, the Model 3 styling is quite bland and along with the excessive cost of changing colour meaning a lot of them look the same. Tesla are already changing so much and I admire them for that, but it worries me a little is all and they are easy to point to as an example of what may be considered a direction for the industry.

What I mean by make the most of the skateboard is once it's done and can handle a weight to a set of desired dynamics and range, it doesn't matter what body you stick on top of it. Pick up truck, four seats, two seats, convertible, targa, luxury interior, hose out interior, falcon doors... you name it, the options are limitless.

I am sure that aero dynamics to optimise range are probably the driving force for this and it is just a matter of time as battery energy density and charge rates increase this will become less of a factor. But personally I am less inclined to own the same thing as everyone else as it continues to be updated over the air and keep pace. The consumer in me, and I appreciate this is the wrong stance to take in the current drive to a circular economy or whatever, but I want variety, I want to see variety even if I am not owning or renting it. I don't want my world to be grey.

Selfish, I know.

Build, sell and service the skateboard... The shell on top give me some variety of customisation to feel different. It worked for the Fiat 500 and they pretty much just offer stickers, body kits and colours (interior/exterior) but it makes it fun and emotive an expression of how you might view yourself or want to be viewed.

This company what a great approach: https://electricbrands.de/en/myxbus/

I can rant on for a bit more about Polestar and what I assume might be their skateboard changed with some Ohlins dampers and a big brake kit (I'm simplifying a performance version, but the mechanical differences for a different dynamic in an EV is a lot less than an ICE) but they could extend that principle, jack it up = more SUV put a coupe body on it, lop the roof off...

I take the point give it time, I guess I am teetering on that precipice of is this my future? I hope not, I hope that there is enough variety out there to continue to give me enjoyment of transportation. By way of explanation I don't have a type, my last four cars have been; super mini, performance hatch 4 seat convertible and now a hatch EV. A real mixed bag of stuff before that too.

[TheDeuce]

TheDrownedApe said:

Kawasicki said:

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

I suspect, but could be wrong, he means that the drive train is small and low. This allows the manufacturers to do what they want with the skin as they don't have to package in an engine/gearbox etc; ergo expect some zany car designs.

However they still need to adhere to passenger and pedestrain safety, and aero, which limits the design freedom.

Exactly - they have to fit in with certain safety rules which were devised whilst looking at the current ICE, not the future EV.

Several manufacturers have exploited the new powertrain layout though. My iPace has the wheels pushed in the extreme of each corner, a tiny, stubby bonnet to maximise cabin space. It's also very tall feeling inside as no transmission tunnel. The ground up EV platform has allowed the designers to go in directions they could not.

Worth remembering that many current EV's cannot be at all radical in their form as they still share a platform with ICE cars. Even some new 'EV' platforms are designed to host either powertrain. As we get closer to ICE bans we should start to see more and more dedicated EV platforms and along with them, more freedom of design.

[Oldwolf]

One limitation that I read with regard to the skateboard design is that the passengers end up sitting on top of it so actually creating a low slung vehicle is more difficult using a standard building block.
Obviously you could have a bespoke skateboard with holes for driver and passenger....

Overall though I think we might have some exciting times ahead of us with manufacturers trying to differentiate their design as long as aero doesn't limit their imagination.

[rscott]

TheDeuce said:

TheDrownedApe said:

Kawasicki said:

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

I suspect, but could be wrong, he means that the drive train is small and low. This allows the manufacturers to do what they want with the skin as they don't have to package in an engine/gearbox etc; ergo expect some zany car designs.

However they still need to adhere to passenger and pedestrain safety, and aero, which limits the design freedom.

Exactly - they have to fit in with certain safety rules which were devised whilst looking at the current ICE, not the future EV.

Several manufacturers have exploited the new powertrain layout though. My iPace has the wheels pushed in the extreme of each corner, a tiny, stubby bonnet to maximise cabin space. It's also very tall feeling inside as no transmission tunnel. The ground up EV platform has allowed the designers to go in directions they could not.

Worth remembering that many current EV's cannot be at all radical in their form as they still share a platform with ICE cars. Even some new 'EV' platforms are designed to host either powertrain. As we get closer to ICE bans we should start to see more and more dedicated EV platforms and along with them, more freedom of design.

The other issue, even for EVs which don't share platforms with ICE is that if the design is too far from the norm, it'll have a hard time being accepted by the general public. Look at the reaction the i3 got, for example.

[JonnyVTEC]

Moonpie21 said:

Not specifically to do with Tesla, but an example I can see and draw some thoughts from. The Model 3 is I think the number one selling EV in the UK and I think EV's were the highest type of newly registered car in the UK last set of stats I saw...

And yetVAG variants of the MEB platform sold more but as they don’t fit under one nameplate you overlooked them whilst asking how to exploit a skateboard.

It’s literally what VW have done.

[paradigital]

JonnyVTEC said:

And yetVAG variants of the MEB platform sold more but as they don’t fit under one nameplate you overlooked them whilst asking how to exploit a skateboard.

It’s literally what VW have done.

Not forgetting that VW have even sold license of the platform outside of their brands. Ford for example.

[WestyCarl]

Moonpie21 said:

What I mean by make the most of the skateboard is once it's done and can handle a weight to a set of desired dynamics and range, it doesn't matter what body you stick on top of it. Pick up truck, four seats, two seats, convertible, targa, luxury interior, hose out interior, falcon doors... you name it, the options are limitless.

This would effectively make it a new vehicle(s) needing huge validation and approval costs which would likely make it prohibitively expensive due to the low volumes.

[Moonpie21]

JonnyVTEC said:

And yetVAG variants of the MEB platform sold more but as they don’t fit under one nameplate you overlooked them whilst asking how to exploit a skateboard.

It’s literally what VW have done.

I get that, and you are right I had not put two and two together, but I hardly call what the VW group has done so far inspiring. Business savvy yes, but not the diversity I was hoping for... I guess hatch and SUV covered on MEB and the multitude of barely variations on a theme all have a family resemblance across brands. Maybe that's the point and my interpretation of unimaginative is just how it works.

The concepts I guess show whats coming in terms of the Buzz, Buggy, Vizzion and to a certain extent Life. I just didn't think it would be that hard, but then again I don't own a successful automotive company or have to mass produce thousands of the thing. So it is a little unfair to be critical

[SWoll]

I can't help but think of the old classic OP.

Car of the future.

[anonymous-user]

Passenger cars are all the same because they all do the same job:


1) carry 5 people and their luggage
2) meet all the necessary legislative and certification rules and regs
3 be reasonably affordable

The fact the motive energy is electricity is really neither here nor there in all honesty.

[JonnyVTEC]

Buzz isn’t a concept now.

[Mikehig]

Oldwolf said:

One limitation that I read with regard to the skateboard design is that the passengers end up sitting on top of it so actually creating a low slung vehicle is more difficult using a standard building block.
Obviously you could have a bespoke skateboard with holes for driver and passenger....

Overall though I think we might have some exciting times ahead of us with manufacturers trying to differentiate their design as long as aero doesn't limit their imagination.

The Porsche Taycan has "footholes" in the battery for that reason.

[TheDeuce]

rscott said:

TheDeuce said:

TheDrownedApe said:

Kawasicki said:

What do you mean by maximising the skateboard platform based design?

I suspect, but could be wrong, he means that the drive train is small and low. This allows the manufacturers to do what they want with the skin as they don't have to package in an engine/gearbox etc; ergo expect some zany car designs.

However they still need to adhere to passenger and pedestrain safety, and aero, which limits the design freedom.

Exactly - they have to fit in with certain safety rules which were devised whilst looking at the current ICE, not the future EV.

Several manufacturers have exploited the new powertrain layout though. My iPace has the wheels pushed in the extreme of each corner, a tiny, stubby bonnet to maximise cabin space. It's also very tall feeling inside as no transmission tunnel. The ground up EV platform has allowed the designers to go in directions they could not.

Worth remembering that many current EV's cannot be at all radical in their form as they still share a platform with ICE cars. Even some new 'EV' platforms are designed to host either powertrain. As we get closer to ICE bans we should start to see more and more dedicated EV platforms and along with them, more freedom of design.

The other issue, even for EVs which don't share platforms with ICE is that if the design is too far from the norm, it'll have a hard time being accepted by the general public. Look at the reaction the i3 got, for example.

I classify that as the reaction people initially have to bold new design changes such as the huge grills we have seen recently. Give people a couple of years of seeing the cars on the road and they accept the way they look and it becomes like accepting a new fashion.

I think generally speaking... The design changes the EV platform makes possible are a step forwards - it's obviously very useful to not have to package a big heavy engine way up front and above the axles. But these are early days and we have to expect some designers will go a bit weird and get it wrong.

There isn't a designer out there has a living memory of the last time car layout had the potential to shift so dramatically. These are exciting times to be a spectator in the world of cars.