Does range matter if charging speeds could improve?
Discussion
Very new to the EV world so please excuse my ignorance if this question sounds daft.
If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
sat1983 said:
Very new to the EV world so please excuse my ignorance if this question sounds daft.
If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
The ultimate charge speed of the vehicle is limited by the battery technology and management. If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
On a 300kW rapid charger the large battery ID3 is limited to pulling a maximum of 125kW, and only for a short period. You would get a full charge in < 1 hour though.
For home charging you are limited by what power you can pull from a standard grid connection to a private residence so for the moment that's 22kW and is expensive to install even if possible. The majority are 7kW, which would give a full charge overnight.
ID3 charge speeds are piss poor far a car with such a large battery. The Kia Ev6 with a similarly sized pack maxes out at 235kW and is still charging at 150kW when it hits 80% SOC.
Edited by SWoll on Sunday 3rd July 10:51
I’d imagine the most efficient and financially economical way will rest somewhere in the middle. Usable range with rapid charging is, for most people, more than enough.
I can count on one finger the amount of times I’ve NEEDED to charge my M3P away from home, for 95% of my driving the normal range is enough, and the car is topped up perhaps twice a week on a 7kW charger at home.
I can count on one finger the amount of times I’ve NEEDED to charge my M3P away from home, for 95% of my driving the normal range is enough, and the car is topped up perhaps twice a week on a 7kW charger at home.
delta0 said:
If you need to drive long distances it’s better to drive for 2-3 hours at a time and then do a very quick rapid charge to get you going for the next 2-3 hours. That way you spend 10-15 mins charging.
Depends on the EV. Tesla, Polestar etc. you are 100% correct and best to charge from 10% > 50%. etron, EV6, Taycan will pull high speeds up to approx 80% SOC so far less benefit to that approach. SWoll said:
sat1983 said:
Very new to the EV world so please excuse my ignorance if this question sounds daft.
If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
The ultimate charge speed of the vehicle is limited by the battery technology and management. If I was to buy say, an ID3, and it has a theoretical 260 miles range. It currently takes hours to charge.
But will the chargers of the future be speedier to recharge the batteries? In which case range might matter less?
On a 300kW rapid charger the large battery ID3 is limited to pulling a maximum of 125kW, and only for a short period. You would get a full charge in < 1 hour though.
For home charging you are limited by what power you can pull from a standard grid connection to a private residence so for the moment that's 22kW and is expensive to install even if possible. The majority are 7kW, which would give a full charge overnight.
Very little of this is to do with battery capacity on long mileage trips (this one was 2500+ miles).
There will be an "efficiency" with fewer stops due to larger battery, but the real time-saving is the ability of the EV6 to charge fast into very high battery SOC.
Aren't we at that point now?
Most EV's have good range, atleast the numbers reported on here are higher than I get from my Petrol car and I'd say mine is relatively frugal compared to alot of cars on here.
The fact you can get 80% charge (also quoted on here) in as little as 15/20 mins, that would be a typical toilet/coffee break for most on long journeys.
Most EV's have good range, atleast the numbers reported on here are higher than I get from my Petrol car and I'd say mine is relatively frugal compared to alot of cars on here.
The fact you can get 80% charge (also quoted on here) in as little as 15/20 mins, that would be a typical toilet/coffee break for most on long journeys.
JonChalk said:
According to ABRP, my recent trip around France in an EV6 involving less than 4 hours charging, would have required around 10 hours of charging in my previous ID.3.
Very little of this is to do with battery capacity on long mileage trips (this one was 2500+ miles).
There will be an "efficiency" with fewer stops due to larger battery, but the real time-saving is the ability of the EV6 to charge fast into very high battery SOC.
Funnily enough I have already edited my post to make exactly that comparison. Very little of this is to do with battery capacity on long mileage trips (this one was 2500+ miles).
There will be an "efficiency" with fewer stops due to larger battery, but the real time-saving is the ability of the EV6 to charge fast into very high battery SOC.
Range really isn't as important as people make out as long as there is a charger at each end of your destination.
I recently went to Scarborough for a cheap weekend away, charged at home then charged when I got there. Its 160 mile trip and never even once looked at the range.
Stuff like the Honda E is only really suitable for city commutes, but most other stuff is perfectly fine considering we live on a relatively small island. Unless you are doing a daily London to Glasgow commute, but at that point I'd just get the train.
I recently went to Scarborough for a cheap weekend away, charged at home then charged when I got there. Its 160 mile trip and never even once looked at the range.
Stuff like the Honda E is only really suitable for city commutes, but most other stuff is perfectly fine considering we live on a relatively small island. Unless you are doing a daily London to Glasgow commute, but at that point I'd just get the train.
Or cause range is important, but one you have 350miles you ok, you don’t really need 700-800miles that many ICE can do. My old 320d was able do Mk to Glasgow on a single tank without drive is 65 in the slow lane.
The issue for me is that I like to run near empty to fill up always have. The pre flat battery distress disorder PFBDD that I would have with a mini e would make it an unwelcome addition. Given time I sure we see a mini e long range.
Changing at home is ideal and only really cost effective solution, so the answer is yes.
The issue for me is that I like to run near empty to fill up always have. The pre flat battery distress disorder PFBDD that I would have with a mini e would make it an unwelcome addition. Given time I sure we see a mini e long range.
Changing at home is ideal and only really cost effective solution, so the answer is yes.
Range will always matter to some extent, because you have to choose where to break your journey and do a little planning.
I have a motorbike with a ~ 200 mile range. I would not change it for one with less (except maybe an electric one with say 150 miles!).
I've done long journeys on the bike and pushed my luck with range, you don't want to be doing that when the motorway goes bad or whatever.
But lots of other people seem happy to spend top money on big bikes with much less range.
I'm a great believer in breaking journeys, I rarely drive more than 150 miles non stop. We'd normally swap driver, use the loo, have coffee somewhere around 3 hours. But we normally stop in nice places not motorway services. Not too bothered about charge speeds personally, if I can put in >150 miles of charge while I take a walk around a nice town or National Trust garden and have a coffee, I probably wouldn't care very often if it took an hour. or 90 minutes. What's that? 40 or 50kW?
The odd times it would annoy include late at night, there's no rewarding way of killing time when you just want to keep making progress towards home and sleep.
Everyone has to weigh up for themselves what they want and expect.
How many of each type of journey do you do?
What's going to change?
For some people, PHEVs make a lot of sense as a solution for the next 4 years.
Might suit me, but if you gave me £30k, I'd probably spend it on a boat instead!
I have a motorbike with a ~ 200 mile range. I would not change it for one with less (except maybe an electric one with say 150 miles!).
I've done long journeys on the bike and pushed my luck with range, you don't want to be doing that when the motorway goes bad or whatever.
But lots of other people seem happy to spend top money on big bikes with much less range.
I'm a great believer in breaking journeys, I rarely drive more than 150 miles non stop. We'd normally swap driver, use the loo, have coffee somewhere around 3 hours. But we normally stop in nice places not motorway services. Not too bothered about charge speeds personally, if I can put in >150 miles of charge while I take a walk around a nice town or National Trust garden and have a coffee, I probably wouldn't care very often if it took an hour. or 90 minutes. What's that? 40 or 50kW?
The odd times it would annoy include late at night, there's no rewarding way of killing time when you just want to keep making progress towards home and sleep.
Everyone has to weigh up for themselves what they want and expect.
How many of each type of journey do you do?
What's going to change?
For some people, PHEVs make a lot of sense as a solution for the next 4 years.
Might suit me, but if you gave me £30k, I'd probably spend it on a boat instead!
I wouldn’t buy any new EV that didn’t have 800V battery architecture. It’s the new standard and the only way to get truly fast charges.
I imagine the next step up in future EV’s will be 1200V batteries, and the charge speed benefits that’ll bring. Although probably most likely for commercial vehicles, at least initially.
I imagine the next step up in future EV’s will be 1200V batteries, and the charge speed benefits that’ll bring. Although probably most likely for commercial vehicles, at least initially.
I don’t see the issue. I’ve been running around in a Corsa-e which is far from the fastest charging or longest range EV. A 20 minute break adds 100+ miles of range at a rapid charger, meaning even on a motorway run you can easily do 250 miles on one 20 minute break assuming you start fully charged.
That’s in a poxy little Corsa, with a 50kWh battery.
What I don’t think is a good idea, is hulking great things like the eTron SUV which get terrible power use numbers but mask it with an enormous battery which takes longer to charge.
That’s in a poxy little Corsa, with a 50kWh battery.
What I don’t think is a good idea, is hulking great things like the eTron SUV which get terrible power use numbers but mask it with an enormous battery which takes longer to charge.
After some toing and froing on this I have arrived at:
EV nirvana is charging at home. I would therefore ideally get the most range that you can get overnight at your home. It’s always nice to have a range buffer as well for those days that don’t go as planned and on those days usually the very last thing you want is to chase a charger.
The thing is that public charging is so expensive that I’m not sure I would even bother with an EV a lot of the time on longer journeys. You get all the faff and few of the benefits.
For me at least, a small battery with fast rapid charging is a lot less useful than decent range.
EV nirvana is charging at home. I would therefore ideally get the most range that you can get overnight at your home. It’s always nice to have a range buffer as well for those days that don’t go as planned and on those days usually the very last thing you want is to chase a charger.
The thing is that public charging is so expensive that I’m not sure I would even bother with an EV a lot of the time on longer journeys. You get all the faff and few of the benefits.
For me at least, a small battery with fast rapid charging is a lot less useful than decent range.
DMZ said:
After some toing and froing on this I have arrived at:
EV nirvana is charging at home. I would therefore ideally get the most range that you can get overnight at your home. It’s always nice to have a range buffer as well for those days that don’t go as planned and on those days usually the very last thing you want is to chase a charger.
The thing is that public charging is so expensive that I’m not sure I would even bother with an EV a lot of the time on longer journeys. You get all the faff and few of the benefits.
For me at least, a small battery with fast rapid charging is a lot less useful than decent range.
Away from home charging is superficially expensive.EV nirvana is charging at home. I would therefore ideally get the most range that you can get overnight at your home. It’s always nice to have a range buffer as well for those days that don’t go as planned and on those days usually the very last thing you want is to chase a charger.
The thing is that public charging is so expensive that I’m not sure I would even bother with an EV a lot of the time on longer journeys. You get all the faff and few of the benefits.
For me at least, a small battery with fast rapid charging is a lot less useful than decent range.
But I struggle to understand the logic of paying £30,000 for an e-chariot then moaning about £30 half a dozen times a year to make it cover your occasional long distance needs as well as your regular local needs.
Look at what you want to do.
Let's take an example of a long weekend in the Lake District once a year.
How would you address that?
How much hassle would it be?
What would the cost be and would it be significant in the big picture?
(if you live at the wrong end of the country think Devon instead! Whatever, what are the 'awkward' trips you will do in the next few years?)
The cost of 'expensive' charging may be small compared to the value it adds to an EV.
I don’t think we’re in disagreement. What you are describing is mostly a function of range I think. As in a trip within range is zero hassle, a trip within 2x range is some hassle which is not hard to put up with (your Lake District example), but beyond it starts to get tedious and extra range doesn’t help that much and I think charge speed becomes more of an issue which is why ICE walks it in that scenario (for me at least). If I only had EVs at hand then I would suck it up.
DaveH23 said:
Aren't we at that point now?
Most EV's have good range, atleast the numbers reported on here are higher than I get from my Petrol car and I'd say mine is relatively frugal compared to alot of cars on here.
The fact you can get 80% charge (also quoted on here) in as little as 15/20 mins, that would be a typical toilet/coffee break for most on long journeys.
really your petrol car will only get you 200ish miles Most EV's have good range, atleast the numbers reported on here are higher than I get from my Petrol car and I'd say mine is relatively frugal compared to alot of cars on here.
The fact you can get 80% charge (also quoted on here) in as little as 15/20 mins, that would be a typical toilet/coffee break for most on long journeys.
? That's bloody appalling!! I do also wonder at the people who can't seem to drive for longer than an hour or so without needing a pee... As for the 80% charge in 15/20 mins - that's only if there's not already a queue waiting to use it, at which point the (EV equivalent of) 'splash and dash' is more of a PiTA.
For me to see an EV as a viable alternative to my car (leaving aside the 'emotional connection' of engine noise) they're getting there and I suspect that in the next 5 years they'll be there, on a practical level. Merc showcased a 750ish mile range on one of their EV's that was shown at Goodwood, now if that type of range can filter down to normal EV's that's a lot of questions answered
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