Alternate Future - Toyota Mirai rental
Discussion
Wouldn't it be great if you could have a car with the environmental cleanliness and silent smoothness of an EV, but which could be quickly refilled for another 300-400 miles driving in only 5 or 10 minutes, just like a petrol car?
Intrigued, we took advantage of visiting family in Japan to try out the Toyota Mirai for 24 hours. As expected, it drives just like a battery EV - urgent step-off, smooth acceleration that weakens noticeably as the speed builds up, smooth regen braking letting it glide to a halt. It felt very well-suited to urban driving, although it still had enough roll-on acceleration for the admittedly fairly gentle demands of Japanese motorways, limited to 80 or 100 km/h along the famous Wangan.
There are a few rough edges - the electric handbrake is separate and works like a conventional auto trans and handbrake, where the car moves slightly as you release the footbrake and it creeps onto the handbrake. Compared to say the Nissan Ariya's brake hold, where you just stop the car with the footbrake and it stays where you put it until you touch the accelerator, it feels very last-gen for an EV. I couldn't see the speed readout on the dash, it was behind the wheel even with the seat in its lowest position. And I think I'd prefer more lift-off regen personally. However I don't think any of that is inherent to the power source.
The range, in admittedly range-friendly road conditions, seemed to hold up well, starting with 455 km and driving it about 50km leaving it showing 406km on the dash. We weren't obliged to refuel it but couldn't resist the opportunity. There were about a dozen hydrogen filling stations listed in the Tokyo area, and we easily found a convenient one just off the Wangan. As we arrived at the deserted station I wondered if it was really operational, but an attendant appeared and topped up the tank for us. It really was as easy and nearly as quick as filling with petrol, admittedly we didn't need much but we were in and out in under five minutes, and that was with me messing around getting the filler cap open. For the record, we paid 1,064 yen (£6.71) for 0.88kg of hydrogen, which would equate to a full tank costing ~£43 for ~285 miles of range. I have no idea how taxed/subsidised H2 is in Japan. The fuel cell absolutely delivers on the promise of ICE-like range and refueling times with EV propulsion.
Note the sign - Hydrogen Gas filling in progress - to forestall any Hindenberg-style disaster where an absent-minded driver takes off with the hose still attached.
The major issue I see with the Mirai is packaging. This is a big saloon, a little larger than an E-Class, yet the trunk is truncated by the drivetrain components behind the rear seats, so we could only fit one of our suitcases in, the other had to go on the back seat. Given my old C-Class wagon can take them both lying down in the boot with the back seats up, this shows how much less usable space the Mirai has for occupants. Talking of rear seats they didn't look that spacious either, and there's no frunk either despite the long bonnet. At least the front seats are properly spacious and comfortable. So it just doesn't offer that much space, which makes it a bit hard to justify the size, weight (1900kg) and price (from £54k in the UK).
Secondary issues are that while it feels premium overall, it isn't actually a Lexus, so lacks the bit of interior quality that would justify the size and price. Also the ride wasn't as isolated as I'd expect, although the flipside is roll is well controlled and the steering, while lifeless, felt crisp and responsive. Finally for my tastes I'd prefer a bit more performance. It's adequate for nearly everyone as it is, this is more my personal need for speed. I do see a potential opportunity for a fuel cell car to offer the extended high-speed motorway cruising that is the achilles heel of battery EVs - sure you'll lose range at 80 or 100mph, but it's got plenty to get to the next hydrogen filling station, and then it's only five minutes to fill back up and speed away again. Call it the 320d use-case.
Still, I liked the Mirai despite its limitations. Electric propulsion is great for a luxury car, being smooth, seamless and silent, and combining that with the opportunity to use as much energy as you like without worrying too much about filling it back up makes for a charming means of transport. The front-end styling looks to me like a passed-over
proposal for a Crown, with the whale-like lower grille harking back to the classic 1970s 'whale' model, and our example looked smart in its oh-so-Japanese pearl white paint.
I have to admit that part of my interest in trying out the Mirai was the feeling that, depending on how things turn out, it may end up a historical curiosity, with even Toyota recently rolling out an array of BEV concepts as an implicit admission that its sole focus on hydrogen fuel cells had been a misjudgment. I think it's far from clear which way things will go. We know that converting electricity to hydrogen and back is less efficient than storing it in a battery to use directly, although in this case 'inefficient' doesn't mean polluting, just that one would need a bigger army of windmills and solar panels to power our motoring. On the flip-side, hydrogen can be stored for later more easily than electricity can, making it a potential good match for intermittent renewable generation. It's possible that trucking will end up hydrogen-driven, which could in turn sustain a refuelling network that might allow a minority of motorists to choose it for long distance, high speed driving (rather as a few hardy American motorists drove diesel cars 30-40 years ago).
To me the fuel cell's packaging demands mean it might better suit a luxury two-door coupe, the class where practicality and value for money are less important and a big, impressive motor car is a boon. Then couple that with a slightly higher performance drivetrain, smooth the rough edges, and you might have something rather attractive for Grand Touring. The LC already looks great and comes with a choice of two drivetrains, why not a third? That would also yield a silent convertible.
Of course, this would be no good if potential buyers were left in doubt about the viability of hydrogen motoring. For this, Toyota should back a useable network of filling stations Europe-wide and guarantee them for a decade. With a 300-mile range plus the car's navigation directing you when and where to fill up, it wouldn't need that many stations to provide enough coverage, and then people could buy with confidence. If start-up Tesla can, surely mighty Toyota can, rather than leave themselves at the mercy of the petrol companies.
Anyway, regardless of the future it was an interesting experience, I'm glad to have made the Mirai's acquaintance, and look forward to seeing how things pan out.
Intrigued, we took advantage of visiting family in Japan to try out the Toyota Mirai for 24 hours. As expected, it drives just like a battery EV - urgent step-off, smooth acceleration that weakens noticeably as the speed builds up, smooth regen braking letting it glide to a halt. It felt very well-suited to urban driving, although it still had enough roll-on acceleration for the admittedly fairly gentle demands of Japanese motorways, limited to 80 or 100 km/h along the famous Wangan.
There are a few rough edges - the electric handbrake is separate and works like a conventional auto trans and handbrake, where the car moves slightly as you release the footbrake and it creeps onto the handbrake. Compared to say the Nissan Ariya's brake hold, where you just stop the car with the footbrake and it stays where you put it until you touch the accelerator, it feels very last-gen for an EV. I couldn't see the speed readout on the dash, it was behind the wheel even with the seat in its lowest position. And I think I'd prefer more lift-off regen personally. However I don't think any of that is inherent to the power source.
The range, in admittedly range-friendly road conditions, seemed to hold up well, starting with 455 km and driving it about 50km leaving it showing 406km on the dash. We weren't obliged to refuel it but couldn't resist the opportunity. There were about a dozen hydrogen filling stations listed in the Tokyo area, and we easily found a convenient one just off the Wangan. As we arrived at the deserted station I wondered if it was really operational, but an attendant appeared and topped up the tank for us. It really was as easy and nearly as quick as filling with petrol, admittedly we didn't need much but we were in and out in under five minutes, and that was with me messing around getting the filler cap open. For the record, we paid 1,064 yen (£6.71) for 0.88kg of hydrogen, which would equate to a full tank costing ~£43 for ~285 miles of range. I have no idea how taxed/subsidised H2 is in Japan. The fuel cell absolutely delivers on the promise of ICE-like range and refueling times with EV propulsion.
Note the sign - Hydrogen Gas filling in progress - to forestall any Hindenberg-style disaster where an absent-minded driver takes off with the hose still attached.
The major issue I see with the Mirai is packaging. This is a big saloon, a little larger than an E-Class, yet the trunk is truncated by the drivetrain components behind the rear seats, so we could only fit one of our suitcases in, the other had to go on the back seat. Given my old C-Class wagon can take them both lying down in the boot with the back seats up, this shows how much less usable space the Mirai has for occupants. Talking of rear seats they didn't look that spacious either, and there's no frunk either despite the long bonnet. At least the front seats are properly spacious and comfortable. So it just doesn't offer that much space, which makes it a bit hard to justify the size, weight (1900kg) and price (from £54k in the UK).
Secondary issues are that while it feels premium overall, it isn't actually a Lexus, so lacks the bit of interior quality that would justify the size and price. Also the ride wasn't as isolated as I'd expect, although the flipside is roll is well controlled and the steering, while lifeless, felt crisp and responsive. Finally for my tastes I'd prefer a bit more performance. It's adequate for nearly everyone as it is, this is more my personal need for speed. I do see a potential opportunity for a fuel cell car to offer the extended high-speed motorway cruising that is the achilles heel of battery EVs - sure you'll lose range at 80 or 100mph, but it's got plenty to get to the next hydrogen filling station, and then it's only five minutes to fill back up and speed away again. Call it the 320d use-case.
Still, I liked the Mirai despite its limitations. Electric propulsion is great for a luxury car, being smooth, seamless and silent, and combining that with the opportunity to use as much energy as you like without worrying too much about filling it back up makes for a charming means of transport. The front-end styling looks to me like a passed-over
proposal for a Crown, with the whale-like lower grille harking back to the classic 1970s 'whale' model, and our example looked smart in its oh-so-Japanese pearl white paint.
I have to admit that part of my interest in trying out the Mirai was the feeling that, depending on how things turn out, it may end up a historical curiosity, with even Toyota recently rolling out an array of BEV concepts as an implicit admission that its sole focus on hydrogen fuel cells had been a misjudgment. I think it's far from clear which way things will go. We know that converting electricity to hydrogen and back is less efficient than storing it in a battery to use directly, although in this case 'inefficient' doesn't mean polluting, just that one would need a bigger army of windmills and solar panels to power our motoring. On the flip-side, hydrogen can be stored for later more easily than electricity can, making it a potential good match for intermittent renewable generation. It's possible that trucking will end up hydrogen-driven, which could in turn sustain a refuelling network that might allow a minority of motorists to choose it for long distance, high speed driving (rather as a few hardy American motorists drove diesel cars 30-40 years ago).
To me the fuel cell's packaging demands mean it might better suit a luxury two-door coupe, the class where practicality and value for money are less important and a big, impressive motor car is a boon. Then couple that with a slightly higher performance drivetrain, smooth the rough edges, and you might have something rather attractive for Grand Touring. The LC already looks great and comes with a choice of two drivetrains, why not a third? That would also yield a silent convertible.
Of course, this would be no good if potential buyers were left in doubt about the viability of hydrogen motoring. For this, Toyota should back a useable network of filling stations Europe-wide and guarantee them for a decade. With a 300-mile range plus the car's navigation directing you when and where to fill up, it wouldn't need that many stations to provide enough coverage, and then people could buy with confidence. If start-up Tesla can, surely mighty Toyota can, rather than leave themselves at the mercy of the petrol companies.
Anyway, regardless of the future it was an interesting experience, I'm glad to have made the Mirai's acquaintance, and look forward to seeing how things pan out.
Interesting review and it shows how it could be implemented as a replacement for EV.
I looked into this 2 years ago but bought a Tesla Model 3 LR instead. The reasons for this were:
I looked into this 2 years ago but bought a Tesla Model 3 LR instead. The reasons for this were:
- Only ten Hydrogen fueling stations in the UK (possibly more now).
- You buy metered Hydrogen by the KG. Currently it costs £12 per KG.
- 62 Mile journey will cost around £11.42 which is just nuts.
- People who hate EV's cite not enough infrastructure.
- People who hate EV's always state that Hydrogen is the future
- There is no Hydrogen infrastructure (it will take 10 years plus if it even starts to take off).
- Depending on the grade of Hydrogen (Blue/Gray etc) the costs cannot compete with fossil fuels or electricity which is everywhere.
LordFlathead said:
The technology is not ready yet. EV's are the future for at least the next ten years. After that who knows.
The window of opportunity for mass adoption of fuel cell cars has passed.It may have made sense if EVs were not a thing, but they are.
Fuel cell means waiting many decades before there are enough wind turbines, electrolyses, filling stations and vehicle production capability for mass adoption to be viable AND renewable.
Yet, in many decades time, it is highly probable that EVs will have overcome any lingering concerns about range, charging time, etc. Who is going to spend hundreds of billions or even trillions on a 'hydrogen future' to find out that that you could have spent a tiny fraction of that to achieve the same thing?
It also means waiting many more decades before any measurable reduction in carbon footprint can be demonstrated, so what government is going to support that?
It's a bit more fundamental than even that though.
A real life EV has already demonstrated that with the right body shape, it is feasible to produce a family car that can travel under real world conditions in excess of 7 miles per kWh.
This is an equivalent economy of nearly 300 mpg.
When you are talking about tens or hundreds of millions of cars, it is simply inconceivable that you would ignore such a massive opportunity to reduce energy consumption for the average car to that degree.
The alternate future you are expecting is not coming to this country. I'm afraid it is very clear which way things will go.
Take a read of the government's hydrogen strategy. Yes, hydrogen potentially in transport, but for HGVs rather than passenger cars en masse.
Which manufacturer is going to bother developing and launching a hydrogen car in the UK if there is no government policy to support that innovation?
"How will we develop and scale up hydrogen in transport over the 2020s?
We expect that the role of hydrogen in transport will evolve over the course of the 2020s and beyond. To date, road transport has been a leading early market for hydrogen in the UK.
Going forward, we expect hydrogen vehicles, particularly depot-based transport including buses, to constitute the bulk of 2020s hydrogen demand from the mobility sector.
Fuel cell hydrogen buses have a range similar to their diesel counterparts. Back-to-depot operating means hydrogen refuelling infrastructure can be more centralised and is likely to be compatible with distributed hydrogen production expected in this period.
Concurrently, we will undertake a range of research and innovation activity which will focus on difficult to decarbonise transport modes, such as heavy road freight. As we demonstrate and understand these larger-scale applications we are likely to see more diversity in transport end uses in the late 2020s and early 2030s.
By 2030, we envisage hydrogen to be in use across a range of transport modes, including HGVs, buses and rail, along with early stage uses in commercial shipping and aviation.
Our analysis shows there could be up to 6TWh demand for low carbon hydrogen from transport in 2030. Beyond this we expect to see an increased role for hydrogen in aviation and shipping decarbonisation which could become a large component of the overall hydrogen demand in the long term. [footnote 59] To meet CB6 in 2035 we estimate the demand from transport could be 20-45TWh. [footnote 60]
We recognise that the longer-term role for hydrogen in transport decarbonisation is not yet clear, but it is likely to be most effective in the areas where energy density requirements or duty cycles and refuelling times make it the most suitable low carbon energy source.
Key challenges in this area include technology uncertainty, lack of existing hydrogen infrastructure, cost differentials and low numbers of hydrogen powered vehicles. Continued investment in research and innovation by government and industry will help to overcome these.
As we learn more about ways in which hydrogen can be used in transport, we will need to put policy in place to support this technology rollout."
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-hydr...
Take a read of the government's hydrogen strategy. Yes, hydrogen potentially in transport, but for HGVs rather than passenger cars en masse.
Which manufacturer is going to bother developing and launching a hydrogen car in the UK if there is no government policy to support that innovation?
"How will we develop and scale up hydrogen in transport over the 2020s?
We expect that the role of hydrogen in transport will evolve over the course of the 2020s and beyond. To date, road transport has been a leading early market for hydrogen in the UK.
Going forward, we expect hydrogen vehicles, particularly depot-based transport including buses, to constitute the bulk of 2020s hydrogen demand from the mobility sector.
Fuel cell hydrogen buses have a range similar to their diesel counterparts. Back-to-depot operating means hydrogen refuelling infrastructure can be more centralised and is likely to be compatible with distributed hydrogen production expected in this period.
Concurrently, we will undertake a range of research and innovation activity which will focus on difficult to decarbonise transport modes, such as heavy road freight. As we demonstrate and understand these larger-scale applications we are likely to see more diversity in transport end uses in the late 2020s and early 2030s.
By 2030, we envisage hydrogen to be in use across a range of transport modes, including HGVs, buses and rail, along with early stage uses in commercial shipping and aviation.
Our analysis shows there could be up to 6TWh demand for low carbon hydrogen from transport in 2030. Beyond this we expect to see an increased role for hydrogen in aviation and shipping decarbonisation which could become a large component of the overall hydrogen demand in the long term. [footnote 59] To meet CB6 in 2035 we estimate the demand from transport could be 20-45TWh. [footnote 60]
We recognise that the longer-term role for hydrogen in transport decarbonisation is not yet clear, but it is likely to be most effective in the areas where energy density requirements or duty cycles and refuelling times make it the most suitable low carbon energy source.
Key challenges in this area include technology uncertainty, lack of existing hydrogen infrastructure, cost differentials and low numbers of hydrogen powered vehicles. Continued investment in research and innovation by government and industry will help to overcome these.
As we learn more about ways in which hydrogen can be used in transport, we will need to put policy in place to support this technology rollout."
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-hydr...
Whataguy said:
Sadly, they are ripping out the hydrogen refilling pump at my local Shell on the M25 - it was the only one for miles.
I only saw one car charging on it over the last few years though.
I actually see this as a good thing.I only saw one car charging on it over the last few years though.
It sends a message that s
t's about to get real for private car use.The 'fuel of the future' thing gave anyone who wanted one an excuse to carry on as normal, because 'one day we will all be driving hydrogen cars'.
For half a century huge strides have been made in industry in an effort to reduce energy consumption, to address fundamental concerns about competitiveness and sustainability.
The end is nigh for the blissful ignorance that private individuals have enjoyed regarding their own energy consumption.
What the UK desperately needs is a cohesive, no-nonsense approach to weaning ourselves off fossil fuels.
The whole 'hydrogen for punters' thing muddies the water and is ripe for short-term commercial exploitation that is counter productive to longer term needs.
GT9 said:
The end is nigh for the blissful ignorance that private individuals have enjoyed regarding their own energy consumption.
You should start a thread with this quote.I'm down to 7kg of gas a year (for the barbecue), and perhaps 25 gallons of petrol (all grass cutting).
A few long trips a year in a 50mpg Honda Logo will hopefully be replaced by using a 50kW MG ZS EV.
It does help that electricity here in NZ is in the 5-15p/kWhr range ("rapid" chargers are 35p).
Solar thermal, solar PV, heat pump hot water.
Also sucking up a willy waving amount of carbon with 150,000 pine trees.
Fuel cell cars are complete technological dead end.
caziques said:
GT9 said:
The end is nigh for the blissful ignorance that private individuals have enjoyed regarding their own energy consumption.
You should start a thread with this quote.I'm down to 7kg of gas a year (for the barbecue), and perhaps 25 gallons of petrol (all grass cutting).
A few long trips a year in a 50mpg Honda Logo will hopefully be replaced by using a 50kW MG ZS EV.
It does help that electricity here in NZ is in the 5-15p/kWhr range ("rapid" chargers are 35p).
Solar thermal, solar PV, heat pump hot water.
Also sucking up a willy waving amount of carbon with 150,000 pine trees.
Fuel cell cars are complete technological dead end.
I can completely understand why most people would back it as the next logical step after petrol and see it as solving the only real inconvenience of BEV, range.
I felt the same way myself for years. But when you actually start to live a life where you start to think about energy consumption and what you can do to limit your own, you rapidly realise that cutting back on additional processes is always going to save energy. It doesn't matter if it's combining a shopping trip with a few other errands to save mileage, or putting generated power straight into a BEV Vs a load of other processes to make, compress, distribute and then deliver hydrogen.
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 2nd January 22:42
DMZ said:
If we’re going to use liquid batteries then let’s do eFuel instead. Some other dullbox tech… I just can’t see the point.
This is my view too.Hydrogen just ends up being a heavily-compromised solution for just about all types of car users, and without any foreseeable way to actually make a production HICE car, the enthusiast doesn't get a look in either.
GT9 said:
DMZ said:
If we’re going to use liquid batteries then let’s do eFuel instead. Some other dullbox tech… I just can’t see the point.
This is my view too.Hydrogen just ends up being a heavily-compromised solution for just about all types of car users, and without any foreseeable way to actually make a production HICE car, the enthusiast doesn't get a look in either.
dvs_dave said:
EFuel requires approx. 50kWh per liter to produce. That makes its “well-to-wheel” efficiency incredibly poor at around 5% of that of a BEV. It’s a massive dead end for all but the most specialized, money-no-object use cases.
I think 50 kWh is a little on the high side, where did you get that number from? Anyway, even at 25 kWh it's still very inefficient compared to battery charging, and to be clear I wan't suggesting it was more than a very niche option.But at least you can store enough of in a car with an engine and gearbox to make a whole range of very desirable cars.
Earthdweller said:
vikingaero said:
The Metropolitan Police use a lot of Mirais.
I think there are ( or were ) 11 on trial which in context to the fleet size is a negligible number Maybe the police ones were taken off the road?
dvs_dave said:
EFuel requires approx. 50kWh per liter to produce. That makes its “well-to-wheel” efficiency incredibly poor at around 5% of that of a BEV. It’s a massive dead end for all but the most specialized, money-no-object use cases.
Maybe but obviously the business case is around storing surplus generation in liquid form. I’m sure creating hydrogen is more efficient than creating artificial petrol but you can blend artificial petrol with actual petrol and there is a bit of an eco system created around petrol so if you can take some surplus renewable energy and turn into green petrol then that’s a win. And there is likely to be plenty of surplus renewable energy in the future.Or you can also not bother and just use petrol.
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