Performance EVs that are as rewarding to drive as ICE cars?
Discussion
Quad motor BMW M2 EV one day in the future? Will it be genuinely fun to drive and provide that connected and rewarding feeling that the best performance ICE cars offer? Could future performance EVs handle even better than the best performance ICE cars due to all the new weird technology?
Or is this just marketing blurb from BMW and we will still end up with a bloated overpriced electric coupe that makes you feel like you're driving a car in a video game? -->
"Speaking exclusively to Autocar following the recent unveiling of the new BMW M2 Coupé, which is in line to receive similar technology in its next generation, M CEO Frank van Meel hinted that 4WD performance EVs will take the lead from the F90-generation BMW M5 xDrive saloon.
That model was controversial on its reveal for adopting a powered front axle but now regarded as one of the best-handling sports saloons of its time.
'The secret behind that,' he said, 'is that you have a central controller, or a central logic that controls everything: the rear differential but also the front-to-rear differential and the DCS [Dynamic Stability Control] system.'
Having one system that manages these relationships is crucial because 'if you have four systems that try to co-operate, the car drives like a car with four systems that like to co-operate'.
BMW calls this ECU the ‘Hand of God’. It has developed it for deployment on various M cars since it first appeared on the BMW i8 as a means of balancing the output of its petrol and electric powerplants and allowing for advanced torque vectoring to improve handling.
'If you go a step further and look at electric cars with four electric motors, like we have in our very early development car, then of course you can still use the same logic to control the car that drives like an M,' said van Meel. 'So I’d say it gives you even more possibilities.'
He highlighted that a powered front axle also allows for greater recuperation of energy under deceleration – potentially a huge boon for electric motorsport.
Details of exactly how an electric M car will be marked out from its standard counterparts remain secret, but the top-rung BMW iX M60 SUV and upcoming BMW i7 M70 saloon already have outputs in the region of 600bhp and rapid off-the-mark acceleration, so van Meel’s engineers will be working hard to cultivate a distinct dynamic character for its new family of sports cars.
Intriguingly, the quad-motor prototype that BMW showed last year is a mash-up of several models from the line-up (it has a BMW 4 Series Gran Coupé bodyshell and BMW M3 front and rear ends, most notably). This suggests the modifications M has in mind will be so extensive as to necessitate the launch of a highly bespoke model, rather than a relatively lightly reworked BMW i4 or i7, for example.
Fruition could be some way off, however, with van Meel saying it needed 'a very early start on the development, because it takes years to get everything ready'.
It’s possible that this technology could find its way into an EV successor to each current M car, which raises the intriguing proposition of a quad-motor, compact coupé in the vein of today’s M2 – a model that stands to benefit most obviously from the compact footprint, low centre of gravity and even weight distribution afforded by such a powertrain.
Van Meel hinted that such a car is on the cards, telling Autocar that M 'will try to also offer in the future cars in this price range', referring to the M2’s £60,000 starting price as the gateway to the M line-up.
Given that the second-gen M2 (M’s final pure-combustion car) is only just on its way to dealerships, an EV successor would no doubt be several years off, but the model’s critical and commercial success means BMW is unlikely to retire it after only two iterations."
Source: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bmw-m-...
Or is this just marketing blurb from BMW and we will still end up with a bloated overpriced electric coupe that makes you feel like you're driving a car in a video game? -->
"Speaking exclusively to Autocar following the recent unveiling of the new BMW M2 Coupé, which is in line to receive similar technology in its next generation, M CEO Frank van Meel hinted that 4WD performance EVs will take the lead from the F90-generation BMW M5 xDrive saloon.
That model was controversial on its reveal for adopting a powered front axle but now regarded as one of the best-handling sports saloons of its time.
'The secret behind that,' he said, 'is that you have a central controller, or a central logic that controls everything: the rear differential but also the front-to-rear differential and the DCS [Dynamic Stability Control] system.'
Having one system that manages these relationships is crucial because 'if you have four systems that try to co-operate, the car drives like a car with four systems that like to co-operate'.
BMW calls this ECU the ‘Hand of God’. It has developed it for deployment on various M cars since it first appeared on the BMW i8 as a means of balancing the output of its petrol and electric powerplants and allowing for advanced torque vectoring to improve handling.
'If you go a step further and look at electric cars with four electric motors, like we have in our very early development car, then of course you can still use the same logic to control the car that drives like an M,' said van Meel. 'So I’d say it gives you even more possibilities.'
He highlighted that a powered front axle also allows for greater recuperation of energy under deceleration – potentially a huge boon for electric motorsport.
Details of exactly how an electric M car will be marked out from its standard counterparts remain secret, but the top-rung BMW iX M60 SUV and upcoming BMW i7 M70 saloon already have outputs in the region of 600bhp and rapid off-the-mark acceleration, so van Meel’s engineers will be working hard to cultivate a distinct dynamic character for its new family of sports cars.
Intriguingly, the quad-motor prototype that BMW showed last year is a mash-up of several models from the line-up (it has a BMW 4 Series Gran Coupé bodyshell and BMW M3 front and rear ends, most notably). This suggests the modifications M has in mind will be so extensive as to necessitate the launch of a highly bespoke model, rather than a relatively lightly reworked BMW i4 or i7, for example.
Fruition could be some way off, however, with van Meel saying it needed 'a very early start on the development, because it takes years to get everything ready'.
It’s possible that this technology could find its way into an EV successor to each current M car, which raises the intriguing proposition of a quad-motor, compact coupé in the vein of today’s M2 – a model that stands to benefit most obviously from the compact footprint, low centre of gravity and even weight distribution afforded by such a powertrain.
Van Meel hinted that such a car is on the cards, telling Autocar that M 'will try to also offer in the future cars in this price range', referring to the M2’s £60,000 starting price as the gateway to the M line-up.
Given that the second-gen M2 (M’s final pure-combustion car) is only just on its way to dealerships, an EV successor would no doubt be several years off, but the model’s critical and commercial success means BMW is unlikely to retire it after only two iterations."
Source: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bmw-m-...
There aren't any, and I find it highly unlikely there ever will be. They'll be enjoyable in their own way, but it won't be the same.
What makes a good ICE car such a pleasure are the inherent faults and idiosyncrasies that the EV drivetrain has eradicated via ruthless efficiency IME. It's like a personal relationship, you might want to work with someone sensible and efficient 9-5 but do you also want to go out for a drink with them at the end of the day?
EV's are excellent for normal daily duties, but in 4 years and 50k miles with multiple models I've never once felt the urge to grab the keys on a Sunday morning and drive just for the fun of it.
What makes a good ICE car such a pleasure are the inherent faults and idiosyncrasies that the EV drivetrain has eradicated via ruthless efficiency IME. It's like a personal relationship, you might want to work with someone sensible and efficient 9-5 but do you also want to go out for a drink with them at the end of the day?
EV's are excellent for normal daily duties, but in 4 years and 50k miles with multiple models I've never once felt the urge to grab the keys on a Sunday morning and drive just for the fun of it.
I think it depends on what you find 'rewarding' in driving?
Making good progress around C roads in a low power car can be rewarding.
Making smooth quiet progress up a motorway towards where you want to go, somewhere around the speed limit can be rewarding.
Making progress by good observation and situation awareness works in any vehicle.
I'm not sure what people actually get out of being in a 'rewarding' car when you're heavily constrained by traffic and speed limits?
If you want to talk bollux about your skills and performance, maybe get on a race track or a hill climb. EVs could be quite good for that?
Before looking for 'rewarding cars', we first have to avoid all the modern cars which are downright irritating.
Making good progress around C roads in a low power car can be rewarding.
Making smooth quiet progress up a motorway towards where you want to go, somewhere around the speed limit can be rewarding.
Making progress by good observation and situation awareness works in any vehicle.
I'm not sure what people actually get out of being in a 'rewarding' car when you're heavily constrained by traffic and speed limits?
If you want to talk bollux about your skills and performance, maybe get on a race track or a hill climb. EVs could be quite good for that?
Before looking for 'rewarding cars', we first have to avoid all the modern cars which are downright irritating.
SWoll said:
There aren't any, and I find it highly unlikely there ever will be. They'll be enjoyable in their own way, but it won't be the same.
What makes a good ICE car such a pleasure are the inherent faults and idiosyncrasies that the EV drivetrain has eradicated via ruthless efficiency IME. It's like a personal relationship, you might want to work with someone sensible and efficient 9-5 but do you also want to go out for a drink with them at the end of the day?
EV's are excellent for normal daily duties, but in 4 years and 50k miles with multiple models I've never once felt the urge to grab the keys on a Sunday morning and drive just for the fun of it.
Couldn't have said that any better TBH What makes a good ICE car such a pleasure are the inherent faults and idiosyncrasies that the EV drivetrain has eradicated via ruthless efficiency IME. It's like a personal relationship, you might want to work with someone sensible and efficient 9-5 but do you also want to go out for a drink with them at the end of the day?
EV's are excellent for normal daily duties, but in 4 years and 50k miles with multiple models I've never once felt the urge to grab the keys on a Sunday morning and drive just for the fun of it.
I think my question for myself is, would I even want a sporty EV? With every option and back catalogue available to me at the moment, the answer is no. No harm in one that drives well but all out sportiness would not be something I would associate with an EV. EVs can do many other things well so best to get one that maximises those aspects. Which I think is a long winded way to say that I agree with SWoll, lol.
Having never driven an EV, I'm not exactly qualified to comment, but I can't imagine any of them being 'rewarding' to drive from a car enthusiasts POV. In the traditional sense.
There's nothing mechanical to interact with, just FBW steering, a pedal and fake noises - if you're lucky.
That's not to say they aren't effective as transport, I'm sure they very well are.
I'd imagine the off line acceleration very quickly looses its appeal, otherwise boring, but effective sums them up.
There's nothing mechanical to interact with, just FBW steering, a pedal and fake noises - if you're lucky.
That's not to say they aren't effective as transport, I'm sure they very well are.
I'd imagine the off line acceleration very quickly looses its appeal, otherwise boring, but effective sums them up.
Lincsls1 said:
I'd imagine the off line acceleration very quickly looses its appeal, otherwise boring, but effective sums them up.
Ah yeah, I don’t even bother anymore. It’s useful to have the power when required but as a form of entertainment, forget it. It’s also not a particularly compelling form of power delivery as you get it all at the start and then it fades. It’s a bit like a diesel but with instant torque. DMZ said:
I think my question for myself is, would I even want a sporty EV? With every option and back catalogue available to me at the moment, the answer is no. No harm in one that drives well but all out sportiness would not be something I would associate with an EV. EVs can do many other things well so best to get one that maximises those aspects. Which I think is a long winded way to say that I agree with SWoll, lol.
Perhaps if there was accessible, actual competitive sport for EVs, it might be a lot of fun?What exactly is the 'sportiness' of which you speak?
What exactly is it you do which you couldn't do in an EV of the same power, power:weight or whatever?
These days, anything 'all out' just isn't compatible with real life public roads. My bike is pretty average I suppose, but if I did anything 'all out' on it I'd pretty soon lose my license or worse.
Unless we're talking 'sport' as in the gamble of will my shed make it there and back? :-)
SHutchinson said:
Lincsls1 said:
I'd imagine the off line acceleration very quickly looses its appeal, otherwise boring, but effective sums them up.
I've got an Audi e-tron GT. I can honestly say the shove off the line (or even from 70mph as it's just as effective) never gets dull.Personally I have no need of faux noise so enjoyed the very rapid but quiet progress. I could actually hear the music system.
I used to have a heavily modified S1 Exige (380 bhp) for track use. It was no joy on the road. I think the Series 1 Elan I owned back in the 70s and the Peugeot 205 Gti sometime later were the most fun cars I ever had but for different reasons.
Primary reason for a car is as a mode of transport so personally I think EVs if not completely there will be within a decade.
DMZ said:
Ah yeah, I don’t even bother anymore. It’s useful to have the power when required but as a form of entertainment, forget it. It’s also not a particularly compelling form of power delivery as you get it all at the start and then it fades. It’s a bit like a diesel but with instant torque.
Not my finding at all. Very little or no noticeable drop off at legal speeds. The Taycan certainly annihilates the Cerebra 4.5 I had a couple of decades ago. Assuming my memory serves are well of course.
It's entirely subjective depending on what an individual finds rewarding.
Ice cars are fundamentally crude and flawed, so immense satisfaction can come from getting the most out of a sporty one because, as driver, you're filling in the gaps and compensating for them with well timed gear changes etc, you're basically making the most of a drivetrain that delivers power in an uneven fashion - getting it right is rewarding.
On the other hand, I also personally also find the effective application of technology that can improve the actual performance of a car to be satisfying to feel and use.
But as said above, there is a huge back catalogue of fantastic and loved ICE fun cars to choose from and run alongside an EV. Choose the right ICE car and look after it well, do minimal miles each year, it could easily rise in value over time sufficient to pay for its upkeep. You can have the best of all worlds without breaking the bank - which I why I think this is a very special time to be a car fan.
Ice cars are fundamentally crude and flawed, so immense satisfaction can come from getting the most out of a sporty one because, as driver, you're filling in the gaps and compensating for them with well timed gear changes etc, you're basically making the most of a drivetrain that delivers power in an uneven fashion - getting it right is rewarding.
On the other hand, I also personally also find the effective application of technology that can improve the actual performance of a car to be satisfying to feel and use.
But as said above, there is a huge back catalogue of fantastic and loved ICE fun cars to choose from and run alongside an EV. Choose the right ICE car and look after it well, do minimal miles each year, it could easily rise in value over time sufficient to pay for its upkeep. You can have the best of all worlds without breaking the bank - which I why I think this is a very special time to be a car fan.
OutInTheShed said:
Perhaps if there was accessible, actual competitive sport for EVs, it might be a lot of fun?
What exactly is the 'sportiness' of which you speak?
What exactly is it you do which you couldn't do in an EV of the same power, power:weight or whatever?
These days, anything 'all out' just isn't compatible with real life public roads. My bike is pretty average I suppose, but if I did anything 'all out' on it I'd pretty soon lose my license or worse.
Unless we're talking 'sport' as in the gamble of will my shed make it there and back? :-)
There are several variations of sportiness but it’s usually about lightweight nimbleness, playfulness, manual gearbox, ideally convertible, and a nice engaging engine that you can wring out. Stuff that makes you feel alive and presents a bit of a challenge. What exactly is the 'sportiness' of which you speak?
What exactly is it you do which you couldn't do in an EV of the same power, power:weight or whatever?
These days, anything 'all out' just isn't compatible with real life public roads. My bike is pretty average I suppose, but if I did anything 'all out' on it I'd pretty soon lose my license or worse.
Unless we're talking 'sport' as in the gamble of will my shed make it there and back? :-)
I have access to a lot of decent roads nearby so no issue with having a bit of fun.
Nomme de Plum said:
Not my finding at all. Very little or no noticeable drop off at legal speeds.
The Taycan certainly annihilates the Cerebra 4.5 I had a couple of decades ago. Assuming my memory serves are well of course.
Straight line performance of the EV isn't in question here.The Taycan certainly annihilates the Cerebra 4.5 I had a couple of decades ago. Assuming my memory serves are well of course.
We're talking about rewarding cars to drive, an EV I'd say, practically drive themselves.
I appreciate I've had neither of your cars, but I bet many that have would say the TVR is the more rewarding and exciting car.
TheDeuce said:
It's entirely subjective depending on what an individual finds rewarding.
Ice cars are fundamentally crude and flawed, so immense satisfaction can come from getting the most out of a sporty one because, as driver, you're filling in the gaps and compensating for them with well timed gear changes etc, you're basically making the most of a drivetrain that delivers power in an uneven fashion - getting it right is rewarding.
On the other hand, I also personally also find the effective application of technology that can improve the actual performance of a car to be satisfying to feel and use.
But as said above, there is a huge back catalogue of fantastic and loved ICE fun cars to choose from and run alongside an EV. Choose the right ICE car and look after it well, do minimal miles each year, it could easily rise in value over time sufficient to pay for its upkeep. You can have the best of all worlds without breaking the bank - which I why I think this is a very special time to be a car fan.
I concur and think you have summed up the situation eloquently.Ice cars are fundamentally crude and flawed, so immense satisfaction can come from getting the most out of a sporty one because, as driver, you're filling in the gaps and compensating for them with well timed gear changes etc, you're basically making the most of a drivetrain that delivers power in an uneven fashion - getting it right is rewarding.
On the other hand, I also personally also find the effective application of technology that can improve the actual performance of a car to be satisfying to feel and use.
But as said above, there is a huge back catalogue of fantastic and loved ICE fun cars to choose from and run alongside an EV. Choose the right ICE car and look after it well, do minimal miles each year, it could easily rise in value over time sufficient to pay for its upkeep. You can have the best of all worlds without breaking the bank - which I why I think this is a very special time to be a car fan.
The attraction of classic cars has far more to do with emotion than performance which is great. It is a joy to see a loved classic being driven.
Lincsls1 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Not my finding at all. Very little or no noticeable drop off at legal speeds.
The Taycan certainly annihilates the Cerebra 4.5 I had a couple of decades ago. Assuming my memory serves are well of course.
Straight line performance of the EV isn't in question here.The Taycan certainly annihilates the Cerebra 4.5 I had a couple of decades ago. Assuming my memory serves are well of course.
We're talking about rewarding cars to drive, an EV I'd say, practically drive themselves.
I appreciate I've had neither of your cars, but I bet many that have would say the TVR is the more rewarding and exciting car.
I posted that my S1 Elan and 205 Gti were my favourite cars albeit the Cerebra was much faster. Coincidentally the 205 and Elan had very similar power outputs and around 120 the Cerebra alleged 420bhp.
SHutchinson said:
Lincsls1 said:
I'd imagine the off line acceleration very quickly looses its appeal, otherwise boring, but effective sums them up.
I've got an Audi e-tron GT. I can honestly say the shove off the line (or even from 70mph as it's just as effective) never gets dull.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff