Grieving the loss of ICE cars?
Discussion
It's being told what to do and what to buy that pisses people off.
It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Henry Cat said:
It's being told what to do and what to buy that pisses people off.
It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Which data has been manipulated and how? It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?
Nomme de Plum said:
We grieve for the loss of family and friends.
IMO grieving the loss of a type of car is just a bit weird.
I say the an engineer who was rebuilding engines from back in my karting days in the 60s/70s and many engines/cars since.
You may find it weird, but plenty would not. IMO grieving the loss of a type of car is just a bit weird.
I say the an engineer who was rebuilding engines from back in my karting days in the 60s/70s and many engines/cars since.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Thursday 2nd January 08:49
And the reason for viewing the loss of ICE cars through the lens of grief is so that one listens to other's perspectives with compassion, rather than just berating them because they don't like EVs or because they object to the pain, cost, and hassle that decarbonising road transport brings.
Effective leadership is about winning hearts and minds, and taking everyone on the journey into the future.
"Grief is not only about the death of someone close to us.
Grief is the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations and the conflicting feelings that come from what we hoped would be or would have been different, better or more.
It does not take the death of a loved one for grief to exist."
https://www.theunleashedheart.com/grief-a-feeling-...
Yeah, eco grief exists
"Ecological grief (or eco-grief), or in particular climate grief, refers to the sense of loss that arises from experiencing or learning about environmental destruction or climate change.
For example, scientists witnessing the decline of Australia's Great Barrier Reef report experiences of anxiety, hopelessness, and despair. Groups impacted heavily also include young people feeling betrayal from lack of environmental action by governments and indigenous communities losing their livelihoods.
Environmental disruption, such as the loss of biodiversity, or even the loss of inanimate environmental features like sea ice, cultural landscapes, or historic heritage can also cause negative psychological responses, such as ecological grief or solastalgia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_grief
As a psychologist I have witnessed a surge in climate grief. This is what I tell my clients ->
"Watching the floods and fires unfold across various states has only deepened the anguish, for we understand that this is not just a temporary state, but a stark preview of the grim reality that awaits us for decades to come.
As a psychologist, it is my duty to address the emotional toll this reality takes on my clients, but it is increasingly difficult to offer solace when confronted with a worsening crisis.
The belief that things will not get better for many decades weighs heavily on the shoulders of young people who are inheriting a world vastly different to their parents and elders.
What troubles me the most is the profound sense of climate anxiety and grief that has settled into the hearts and minds of the young people I work with due to feeling like the political class and other adults around them are failing them. This can result in sleepless nights, racing thoughts, rumination, and an inability to concentrate or focus.
The concept of intergenerational theft and betrayal is a prevailing sentiment among the young people I support.
The anger they feel is not just about the present catastrophes but about the future they are being bequeathed – a world where the stability of life is threatened. Where safety and stability are only available to a fraction of the world’s inhabitants."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan...
Henry Cat said:
It's being told what to do and what to buy that pisses people off.
It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
I understand the argument - I don't want to be told what to think or do. It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Question is how the people who say they don't want to be told what to do are so happy being told what to do?
Anti-EV FUD gets posted on repeat. Nobody is buying them. The battery will catch fire. They are unsafe. A child slave has dug the battery materials. They cost far more. They emit more emissions. All of these FUDs have been fed to them. Don't want to be told what to think, and yet think how certain parts of the media/political spectrum tell them to think, almost mindlessly. Yes, they say, we are all individuals...
Nomme de Plum said:
Henry Cat said:
It's being told what to do and what to buy that pisses people off.
It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Which data has been manipulated and how? It's not EV is better or worse ,faster slower,longer range not longer etc . They are different propositions with different advantages and benefits.
It's the state control,based on a series of factors used to manipulate the data to prove a specific outcome
I want to make the choice not be told what I think,or to do.
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?
My point is I don't want to be told what I can and cant buy , I want choice .
Nomme de Plum said:
We grieve for the loss of family and friends.
IMO grieving the loss of a type of car is just a bit weird.
I say the an engineer who was rebuilding engines from back in my karting days in the 60s/70s and many engines/cars since.
I'll likely get abuse for saying it, but the best drivers car I ever owned was a Mini Cooper. F56. Burbly 1.5l I3 petrol, 6-speed manual box. The clutch was beautiful, software blipped the throttle in downshifts, the engine pulled strongly and made a nice noise, and the chassis was properly chuckable. In short, it was hugely entertaining to drive. Economical on Green mode if you wafted it up the motorway, thirsty in sport mode thrashing every hp out of the drivetrain.IMO grieving the loss of a type of car is just a bit weird.
I say the an engineer who was rebuilding engines from back in my karting days in the 60s/70s and many engines/cars since.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Thursday 2nd January 08:49
But then you experience an electric drivetrain. More power. Available instantly. At any speed. Pump and squirt acceleration through corners, with lift-off tuck in available mid-corner thanks to regen. An electric Mini would thrash a petrol one on the same just because the drivetrain is more responsive.
That's a B-road thrash. Most normals don't do that. They go from A to B. Offer them a car that's far easier to drive, that's far cheaper to fuel, that needs next to no maintenance and they'd say great! As they have done at every point over the last 40 years as we have made engines cleaner, more efficient and more reliable. The idea that normals now want to reject cheaper cleaner and more reliable - because "nobody wants one" - is demonstrably laughable.
I get it. Especially on here, there are a community of people who like cars they have to wrestle. Who like cars that break so that they can do DIY mechanics on their driveway. Who like the character. Got it. But its no different to the people who never got over the end of Steam on the railways.
JustGetATesla said:
I get it. Especially on here, there are a community of people who like cars they have to wrestle. Who like cars that break so that they can do DIY mechanics on their driveway. Who like the character. Got it. But its no different to the people who never got over the end of Steam on the railways.
True. This last bit can be applied to any historical artefact, swords, muskets, ships, and so on. People marvel and are intrigued by the steps in development of objects and the lifestyles surrounding them.Henry Cat said:
You should really ask yourself the same question. We all have the same access to published data, just google, and there are heaps of examples of reports and accounts of how ICE cars are better for the environment long term and that EV's are better for the environment long term. I recall when Diesel vehicles were the best option for the planet, and soon an oil country will provide definite proof that the EMF from sitting near batteries causes something awful . Breathing in car fumes cases something also . It just goes on .
My point is I don't want to be told what I can and cant buy , I want choice .
Of course you can find anything on the internet to confirm an already held opinion, it’s called confirmation bias. Unsurprisingly, you have not linked to anything nor been specific about which aspect of the environment you mean.My point is I don't want to be told what I can and cant buy , I want choice .
There are several specific aspects that many people on here, including me, have tried to describe in great detail dozens of times using multiple credible sources.
The most obvious is lifetime CO2. Whatever one’s personal opinion on climate change is, what you won’t be able to find is a credible source that shows how an ICE car’’s usage phase carbon footprint can be made to be less than it very obviously is, simply because the ratio of mass of carbon dioxide produced when you burn fuel is eternally fixed to to the mass of fuel you burn.
The tailpipe output is always going to be 3 tons of CO2 to 1 ton of petrol. That rises to 4 tons when you take into account the production process to get the fossil fuel out of the ground and to your petrol tank. Have a go at calculating how many tons of petrol an ICE car will consume over 125,000 miles.
And then try to describe using some form of credible reference how manufacturing and charging a battery for the equivalent sized EV, driven over the same distance, gets anywhere near that.
Actually, don’t bother, because it would be a complete waste of time. If you really want to see a different approach to decarbonisation for passenger cars then what you will need to do is find a way to change the Climate Act legislation and the UK’s stance on net zero.
There is only one way to meet those legally binding obligations, and it’s to stop burning fossil fuel. And yes, I know, some of our electricity is produced from burning fuel, but it’s already a very small fraction of what an ICE gets through and continues to reduce every year.
No grief from me, but an annoyance over negative changes - the inclusion of 'lane keeping assist', 'speed assist' and numerous other rubbish that you need to be a software engineer to turn off.
An annoyance that engines are getting smaller - the slow death of the V12 (for example) and, I assume the V8 will follow. None of which I seem to remember voting for.
I have a Tesla as it happens - a great car. My commuting appliance. I also have a V8 and flat 6 in the garage for driving pleasure..... Nothing wrong with the Tesla, but I don't want to live in a world where we can only choose EV's as new cars.
An annoyance that engines are getting smaller - the slow death of the V12 (for example) and, I assume the V8 will follow. None of which I seem to remember voting for.
I have a Tesla as it happens - a great car. My commuting appliance. I also have a V8 and flat 6 in the garage for driving pleasure..... Nothing wrong with the Tesla, but I don't want to live in a world where we can only choose EV's as new cars.
raspy said:
The way some people seem to react and think when it comes to the growth of EVs as well as the forthcoming ban on being able purchase a brand new ICE car, makes me feel that some drivers of ICE vehicles may be "grieving" and in one of the 5 stages of grief.
What do you think?
I think your thread is pretty pointless, that's what I think. What do you think?
JustGetATesla said:
software blipped the throttle in downshifts,
good post, but you lost it at that bit! A manual was originally a necessity to make ICE work over different speeds but it's now the enthusiast needs it, along with a clutch, for the act of driving. especially in a base Cooper, which I agree is a great car to enjoy a b road thrash in. Otherwise, just get an auto of some variant - slush or DCT.An EV is an interesting drivetrain to enjoy in its own right, for all its characteristics and foibles. Much like a lazy torquey big capacity engine, or a revy lightweight that needs to be kept in the power band are both engaging in different ways.
I grieve the growth of legislated interference and luxurious weight in all cars over the last 20 years rather than the emergence of electric.
skyrover said:
No new models since the mid 2000's interest me, old car's are the future
I've got an MX-5 and a Tesla Model S.
As an owner of those cars, I feel modern cars are just too heavy and competent to enjoy on the road (bar some obvious exceptions).
The MX5 2L got canned in Europe because it's NA and has 154g CO2, while being a relatively popular car for Mazda. It's sad that such cars have to go in favor of 2.3 tonne PHEV SUVs.
What I do know is that bringing the kids to school on a winter morning in a country that has had an enormous bias towards diesel cars for a quarter of a century, the smog is palpable. We get an e-mail every week from the schools to urge us to turn off the engines when dropping off/picking up the kids.
The zebra crossing is worst. Where people stop and then accelerate. So as a "local" thing, I definitely get it.
Henry Cat said:
It's being told what to do and what to buy that pisses people off.
Same here, and that'll always be the case. But if it's a matter of public health, it makes sense. Just like I don't want to be forced to inhale second hand smoke from someone at a restaurant, it's hard to deny the fumes and soot an ICE puts out. I do feel that smaller, reasonable petrol cars like a Fiesta or Clio are blameless victims of the way the legislation is set up. Forcing them to become hybrids makes no sense to me.A500leroy said:
Yes I am grieving it, my life has been combustion engines ever since I was born and I now no longer know or feel I belong in what the world is becoming. It's not exciting having change, it's just annoying.
Fair enough. Reminds me of the ‘Flambards’ - where internal combustion engines are replacing horses, and some people grieve it, due to the impersonal nature of engines compared to the living creatures that are horses.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff