BYD Seal 08 - how does Europe compete with this!?
Discussion
The spec and stats of this car, for the price, is ridiculous!
Effectively the second generation of Seal and the first of BYD's second generation of EV's (although there is a PHEV too, for the same price)
In china the top spec 690 horsepower BEV variant sells for the equivalent of just £23k. Even with tariffs in place, it should only cost around £40k OTR here in the UK and across Europe.
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
What does a 3.3 second to 60 luxury german saloon cost with all the kit this thing comes with? It's got to be at least 3 times the price.
Effectively the second generation of Seal and the first of BYD's second generation of EV's (although there is a PHEV too, for the same price)
In china the top spec 690 horsepower BEV variant sells for the equivalent of just £23k. Even with tariffs in place, it should only cost around £40k OTR here in the UK and across Europe.
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
What does a 3.3 second to 60 luxury german saloon cost with all the kit this thing comes with? It's got to be at least 3 times the price.
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
Panamax said:
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
Can't blame net zero for this - the Chinese were always destined to disrupt European car manufacturing. It doesn't matter if the cars are electric or petrol, or both, the Chinese can offer the same as the legacy EU brands can now, but at a far lower price.And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
Renault are indeed doing a decent job, but even they will soon fail to deliver the same value as the Chinese can.
Dog Biscuit said:
TBF, VW have to be the EU firm most at risk due to the flood of Chinese cars. The more premium German brands can continue to head more and more upmarket to fend off direct comparison to most Chinese EV's, but VW can't do that because the entire point of their brand is to satisfy the middle part of the market. That's what the Chinese are mostly aiming for too.TheDeuce said:
It doesn't matter if the cars are electric or petrol, or both, the Chinese can offer the same as the legacy EU brands can now, but at a far lower price.
No, Chinese ICE cars were crap. It's the switch to EV which has thrown the doors wide open for them. There's no existing product for them to "beat" at a comparable price. Johnny Chinaman never set out to compete with the Porsche Taycan - he had a clean sheet of paper to work with and significant EV tax incentives.IMO the people who bought expensive EVs were nuts - although let's face it, most of them were heavily tax-subsidised company cars. The real world car buyer has always been waiting for cheaper EVs and Johnny Chinaman is right there with relevant product.
Having said that, I have high hopes for Renault and its friends and relations, such as Dacia and Alpine.
Panamax said:
TheDeuce said:
It doesn't matter if the cars are electric or petrol, or both, the Chinese can offer the same as the legacy EU brands can now, but at a far lower price.
No, Chinese ICE cars were crap. It's the switch to EV which has thrown the doors wide open for them. There's no existing product for them to "beat" at a comparable price. Johnny Chinaman never set out to compete with the Porsche Taycan - he had a clean sheet of paper to work with and significant EV tax incentives.IMO the people who bought expensive EVs were nuts - although let's face it, most of them were heavily tax-subsidised company cars. The real world car buyer has always been waiting for cheaper EVs and Johnny Chinaman is right there with relevant product.
Having said that, I have high hopes for Renault and its friends and relations, such as Dacia and Alpine.
We don't see many of the petrol cars over here but they make plenty. Currently the best selling car in the UK is a Chinese hybrid.
The car this thread is concerned with is also available as a PHEV and remains staggeringly great value for money.
China have been investing in their EV strategy for over 20 years whilst the west has been hancuffed by influential oil folk and an infrastructure that revolves around fossil fuels.
As a fast growing and 'emerging' economy they had the forsight to look to the future, develop the tech and the infrastructure and now they are sitting pretty.
Meanwhile the west is struggling to 'rebuild' if you like and that massive cost base is applied to their products (that are not as good) they expect people to pay more for.
For consumers the old 'cheap chinease crap' label doesn't really wash as they are cheap yet world class in many cases.
THis is why the legacy brands are finding it tough.
As a fast growing and 'emerging' economy they had the forsight to look to the future, develop the tech and the infrastructure and now they are sitting pretty.
Meanwhile the west is struggling to 'rebuild' if you like and that massive cost base is applied to their products (that are not as good) they expect people to pay more for.
For consumers the old 'cheap chinease crap' label doesn't really wash as they are cheap yet world class in many cases.
THis is why the legacy brands are finding it tough.
Panamax said:
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
What are doing today is failing and we need to pivot. Making cars. production economically viable is step one. The Chinese will produce car in Europe if we can make stop taxing the crap out of everything. They have said as much and there no magic to what byd are doing just subsidies and good marketing.And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
ashenfie said:
Panamax said:
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
What are doing today is failing and we need to pivot. Making cars. production economically viable is step one. The Chinese will produce car in Europe if we can make stop taxing the crap out of everything. They have said as much and there no magic to what byd are doing just subsidies and good marketing.And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
It would enable BYD etc to build cars in Europe, but they'd just be paying more in labour but the cars wouldn't be subject to import tariffs, so the price of the cars would remain about the same
TheDeuce said:
The spec and stats of this car, for the price, is ridiculous!
Effectively the second generation of Seal and the first of BYD's second generation of EV's (although there is a PHEV too, for the same price)
In china the top spec 690 horsepower BEV variant sells for the equivalent of just £23k. Even with tariffs in place, it should only cost around £40k OTR here in the UK and across Europe.
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
What does a 3.3 second to 60 luxury german saloon cost with all the kit this thing comes with? It's got to be at least 3 times the price.
It's a 5.2 metre long saloon car, what is it actually competing with? The BMW i7, Lotus Emeya or Merc EQS?Effectively the second generation of Seal and the first of BYD's second generation of EV's (although there is a PHEV too, for the same price)
In china the top spec 690 horsepower BEV variant sells for the equivalent of just £23k. Even with tariffs in place, it should only cost around £40k OTR here in the UK and across Europe.
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
What does a 3.3 second to 60 luxury german saloon cost with all the kit this thing comes with? It's got to be at least 3 times the price.
The current top of the range Seal is priced at £50k in the UK, I somehow doubt this bigger and better equipped model is going to be £40k?
Dog Biscuit said:
The 'Have Your Say' comments on that article are horrifying!TheDeuce said:
ashenfie said:
Panamax said:
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
What are doing today is failing and we need to pivot. Making cars. production economically viable is step one. The Chinese will produce car in Europe if we can make stop taxing the crap out of everything. They have said as much and there no magic to what byd are doing just subsidies and good marketing.And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
It would enable BYD etc to build cars in Europe, but they'd just be paying more in labour but the cars wouldn't be subject to import tariffs, so the price of the cars would remain about the same
JQ said:
This is a genuine question, as I don't know the answer - but what % of a car's production cost is labour, I thought they were built by robots these days.
Don't worry, the Deuce is talking rubbish. Factors like energy cost also play an enormous part and there's a whole lot more as well.No way are labour costs in China only 10% of the West.
Our study has revealed that where in the world to manufacture is a complicated decision and involves a comprehensive analysis of labor costs, productivity, geopolitics, risk, where customers are located, and how markets are growing. With labor rates in China doubling over the past few years, companies are now considering moving back to America, https://reshoringinstitute.org/global-labor-rates-...
On a bad day you might be able to demonstrate Chinese labour cost is about one third of the West but 10% is complete nonsense.
The Chinese have cornered the EV business by investing heavily in a domestic EV infrastructure (proper network of charging points) as well as investing in the batteries and cars. Chinese ICE cars are a completely different kettle of junk.
Where the Deuce is absolutely right is that Chinese EVs look great value in UK - if you want one.
JQ said:
TheDeuce said:
ashenfie said:
Panamax said:
There ya go.
And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
What are doing today is failing and we need to pivot. Making cars. production economically viable is step one. The Chinese will produce car in Europe if we can make stop taxing the crap out of everything. They have said as much and there no magic to what byd are doing just subsidies and good marketing.And Boris Johnson was telling us UK would become "world beating" in EV technology. (Let's not forget Andy Burnham sounds like a Boris clone with his promised re-industrialisation of the UK. There's not a prayer.)
The sad thing to my mind is UK government sitting back, congratulating itself on "net zero" policies and throwing open the borders to Chinese cars. Meanwhile Renault are making a decent fist of sensibly priced EVs for Europe.
It would enable BYD etc to build cars in Europe, but they'd just be paying more in labour but the cars wouldn't be subject to import tariffs, so the price of the cars would remain about the same
TheDeuce said:
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
The German car manufactures played a key role in the decimation of the UK car industry over the last 40 years.After German reunification, massive amounts of state and EU funding were poured into the German manufacturers which had a devastating impact on UK businesses.
The UK has already had to go through this pain. Unfortunately for Germany, it's now their turn.
Panamax said:
JQ said:
This is a genuine question, as I don't know the answer - but what % of a car's production cost is labour, I thought they were built by robots these days.
Don't worry, the Deuce is talking rubbish. Factors like energy cost also play an enormous part and there's a whole lot more as well.No way are labour costs in China only 10% of the West.
Our study has revealed that where in the world to manufacture is a complicated decision and involves a comprehensive analysis of labor costs, productivity, geopolitics, risk, where customers are located, and how markets are growing. With labor rates in China doubling over the past few years, companies are now considering moving back to America, https://reshoringinstitute.org/global-labor-rates-...
On a bad day you might be able to demonstrate Chinese labour cost is about one third of the West but 10% is complete nonsense.
The Chinese have cornered the EV business by investing heavily in a domestic EV infrastructure (proper network of charging points) as well as investing in the batteries and cars. Chinese ICE cars are a completely different kettle of junk.
Where the Deuce is absolutely right is that Chinese EVs look great value in UK - if you want one.
The article you have linked to is about restoring western manufacturers that currently manufacture their cars in China. They don't see the full labor saving that Chinese owned companies do, especially those that own significant parts of their supply chain.
The sub 10% figure is based on the total cost of employing the labour force, which is far higher than just the wage delta suggests, because in the west each employee carries a significant HR cost too, which isn't the case in China - certainly not to anything like the same extent.
alock said:
TheDeuce said:
Just how do the likes of VW cope with this? Obviously this is a sedan so will only sell so well these days... but of course they'll deliver more or less the same spec and price point in SUV form soon too.
The German car manufactures played a key role in the decimation of the UK car industry over the last 40 years.After German reunification, massive amounts of state and EU funding were poured into the German manufacturers which had a devastating impact on UK businesses.
The UK has already had to go through this pain. Unfortunately for Germany, it's now their turn.
It’s easy to say “Chinese cars are crap”. I seem to remember people saying “Japanese cars are crap in the early 1980s” “Korean cars are crap” in the late 90s / early 2000s. Look where we are now. They were priced lower and gradually increased their prices to become normally priced and part of the mainstream choices.
Nothing to say the same won’t happen with Chinese cars, so enjoy it while we’re all getting the high spec cars for the lower prices. I don’t see an issue with having as much choice on car / spec / price as I can.
Nothing to say the same won’t happen with Chinese cars, so enjoy it while we’re all getting the high spec cars for the lower prices. I don’t see an issue with having as much choice on car / spec / price as I can.
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