Are Group C Cars that raced faster than the modern Audis etc
Discussion
Clickez and all will be revealed:
http://www.groupcracing.com/pages/Le-Mans-Res-2010
Just don't look at the qualifying times - the rain was epic.
Basically the quickest lap was a 3.44 by the Sauber, so roughly 25 seconds a lap slower than the Pugs.
This is something I have pondered too but slightly differently. Put the circuit back to 1981 layout - no chicanes and Dunlop a very shallow curve right down to the Esses - and equalise both types of car so the group C cars could run qualifying boost as they used to (not the Jaguars obviously) and which would be quicker. I seem to remember qualifying times in the 3:12s being possible at some point which is not so far away from the 3:19s we saw this weekend. Also, the last evolutions of the Group C cars had very decent ground effects which is denied the later cars.
It won't happen but it would be fascinating to see what the Lancia, Porsche, Jaguar and Mercedes - not mention Toyota and Nissan of course - could do against the modern Audi and Peugeot.
It won't happen but it would be fascinating to see what the Lancia, Porsche, Jaguar and Mercedes - not mention Toyota and Nissan of course - could do against the modern Audi and Peugeot.
Nick M said:
Basically the quickest lap was a 3.44 by the Sauber, so roughly 25 seconds a lap slower than the Pugs.
I expect that's slightly distorted by a number of factors - the Group C's1) Were not being driven quite as hard given their rarity / value / parts availability
2) Were not being driven by quite as quick drivers who were quite as familiar with the cars.
3) Would be "tuned" for safety
I think that it was quite ably summed up by the overall performance of the Audis this year. They broke the record for the most number of laps which was previously hed by the Silk Cut Jaguar. OK, Tertre Rouge is now much quicker but to offset that the Dunlops are far slower and then there are the two chicanes on the Hunaudières which are the killer. No doubt about it, even excluding suspension and tyre advances offset of course by the lower fuel consumption of the diesels, the modern cars would win hands down. Oh, and let's not forget to add to the Group C cars the extra weight for compulsory air con. Another 26kgs if I remember the rule changes correctly from a year or two back.
Around the current circuit the modern cars will always be quicker but that's down to the cars being designed for the circuit as much as anything else.
There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
//j17 said:
Around the current circuit the modern cars will always be quicker but that's down to the cars being designed for the circuit as much as anything else.
There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
Not sure that this is actually true, despite the groundforce part being correct. on Thursday I was on the hump of the Mulsanne, a few hundred metres from the Mulsanne bend. This is exactly 0.9kms from the last chicane and the radar was there as always to verify car speeds. This an uphill stretch and despite all this the cars were attaining 325kph in a distance of just over half a mile. Yes, the 905 Peugeot in 1993 attained over 400kph, but imagine what manufacturers could do if the chicanes were removed. Incidentally, they were put in not only because of the flying Mercedes but because constructors asked for them on the basis that they would have had to design a one-off bodyshell to cope with the extremely high speeds attainable on the 2.4 mile straight. This would have been exhorbitantly expensive and feasable for but a few in view of cost - and all for one race a year.There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
lowdrag said:
//j17 said:
Around the current circuit the modern cars will always be quicker but that's down to the cars being designed for the circuit as much as anything else.
There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
Not sure that this is actually true, despite the groundforce part being correct. on Thursday I was on the hump of the Mulsanne, a few hundred metres from the Mulsanne bend. This is exactly 0.9kms from the last chicane and the radar was there as always to verify car speeds. This an uphill stretch and despite all this the cars were attaining 325kph in a distance of just over half a mile. Yes, the 905 Peugeot in 1993 attained over 400kph, but imagine what manufacturers could do if the chicanes were removed. Incidentally, they were put in not only because of the flying Mercedes but because constructors asked for them on the basis that they would have had to design a one-off bodyshell to cope with the extremely high speeds attainable on the 2.4 mile straight. This would have been exhorbitantly expensive and feasable for but a few in view of cost - and all for one race a year.There is no such thing as a free lunch in aerodynamics and the more down force a car generates the more drag it generates. In the Group C era the Mulsanne was one long straight so down force was sacrificed to minimise drag and maximise top speed. With the chicanes in place the top speeds possible aren't the same so you don't need to minimise drag and car generate more down force, making you a lot quicker through the corners.
andy tims said:
Nick M said:
Basically the quickest lap was a 3.44 by the Sauber, so roughly 25 seconds a lap slower than the Pugs.
I expect that's slightly distorted by a number of factors - the Group C's1) Were not being driven quite as hard given their rarity / value / parts availability
2) Were not being driven by quite as quick drivers who were quite as familiar with the cars.
3) Would be "tuned" for safety
a) Most of the owners of these cars expect them to be driven as they were intended and their value is as insignificant as that of a Pug 908 is to ORECA.
b) Granted in a few cases but there are some very good drivers out there in these cars who might have been able to prove a match for the Bell's, Stucks et al of this world if they had not been so busy earning the wedge to buy these cars now. Added to which there are a number of paid drivers out there in these cars, Justin Law and Kintch (SP) for a start.
c)Again maybe a few have had the wick turned down and self inposed rev limits but the guys at the front end? Don't be fooled our any illusions, they are as serious as cancer.
Edited by Rude-boy on Thursday 17th June 15:42
Don't agree. Last year (? - time flies) I was on the Mulsanne and very few of the cars actually "raced". The JD Classics two Silk Cuts did, from memory, two laps and then "retired" and left Justin Law and Gary Pearson to fight it out on their own. Very few of the cars actually raced, the majority going round in their own time to get a history and hopefully to inflate the value of the cars. The best racing I've seen in a few years was in 2007 when the sound of the Mazda was astounding - an evocative of 1991.
hi
I was very sad to see the end of group c at the time it was considered a threat to the popularity of f1. The chicanes were put in because of an argument between JP Balestrea FIA and the ACO and the race was very nearly cancelled. Not because of the short timescale to do the work but because planning permision was needed for the removal of some trees!
I spoke to the Jaguar mechanic a couple of years back and he was prety certain that they could get close to the front runners but there was no developement of tyres and a shortage of them. All the money in the world spent on racing cars and still the biggest factor is tyres.
I have attended the great race 31 times and it has allways puzzeled me to why Jaguar recieved such great support. There has been lots of other great british marques before and since but nothing comes close to the passion shown to the group c jags. If Jaguar hadn`t entered I firmly believe Le Mans would still be just a french race meeting attended by maybe 15 to 20 thousand brits.The same applies to Germans, they came in there hoardes when Porsche entered but not for other german marques. If Jaguar enter again will it happen again?
Motoring-man
I was very sad to see the end of group c at the time it was considered a threat to the popularity of f1. The chicanes were put in because of an argument between JP Balestrea FIA and the ACO and the race was very nearly cancelled. Not because of the short timescale to do the work but because planning permision was needed for the removal of some trees!
I spoke to the Jaguar mechanic a couple of years back and he was prety certain that they could get close to the front runners but there was no developement of tyres and a shortage of them. All the money in the world spent on racing cars and still the biggest factor is tyres.
I have attended the great race 31 times and it has allways puzzeled me to why Jaguar recieved such great support. There has been lots of other great british marques before and since but nothing comes close to the passion shown to the group c jags. If Jaguar hadn`t entered I firmly believe Le Mans would still be just a french race meeting attended by maybe 15 to 20 thousand brits.The same applies to Germans, they came in there hoardes when Porsche entered but not for other german marques. If Jaguar enter again will it happen again?
Motoring-man
wasnt the overiding power/speed reducing factor of group c that it was a fuel consumption formula? Which was why Lancia initialy took a group 6 2L route instead.
Looking back, Group C now looks great but at the time Group C was much derided for lack of entries,Le mans excepting, Porsche "one make series" steamrollering the championships and there were some great cars but they were not all competing against each other at the same time, with a few exceptions.
Looking back, Group C now looks great but at the time Group C was much derided for lack of entries,Le mans excepting, Porsche "one make series" steamrollering the championships and there were some great cars but they were not all competing against each other at the same time, with a few exceptions.
chronograph said:
GROUP c from 1989 onward had some great grids and a proper world series. Brands Hatch 1989 38 entries including toyota, Nissan, Mazda, mercedes, Jaguar, Porsche, Aston Martin plus a Jaguar turbo prototype. All works entries were out to win!
yet the most memorable race there involved just a Porsche 956 and and a Lancia Barchetta.Gassing Station | Le Mans | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff