BMW 325i/330i Sport (E46) or Lexus IS?...
Discussion
I have been looking to achieve my affordable dream (986 Boxster S or E90 M3) recently and am currently leaning towards the Boxster S as a DD. However, I still need another car for family duties and would prefer something a bit nicer than my FN Civic. My wife was keen for me to find a one car solution and I did consider an Evo X but I am yet to be convinced by this option and besides there are none to try out in my area. I think she's now on board with the idea of two cheaper cars (Boxster + something else) rather than one "expensive" car (Evo X or E90 M3).
So, I'm looking for something a bit nicer than the Civic, preferably a 4 door saloon, manual transmission, 6-pot and RWD, as most of my cars have been FWD and I'm getting a bit bored with it now. BUDGET 3-4K.
The obvious choice is an E46 BMW 325i/330i Sport (2001-2005 to anyone that doesn't do E numbers)! It seems like I should get quite a nice one in my budget, as they are cheaper than coupes, I love BMW's straight-six engines and happen to think that it's one of the nicest looking saloons of its time. I even like the 18" cross-spoke wheels, which remind me of the ones on my old E30 325i.
However, on paper the boot looks pretty small compared to other contemporary saloons (I don't know how this pans out in reality?), it is the obvious choice (which I tend to shy away from) and having owned some German cars of similar age (VWs, Mercedes), I know that they can suffer from some niggly and expensive faults. Incidentally, my 15 year old E30 was bulletproof in terms of reliability!
My last three cars have been Japanese (Subaru, Toyota, Honda) and I love the fact that they just work and just don't seem to go wrong. If only the Japanese made a car like the 3-Series I thought! Hang on a minute! How about these?
I remember quite liking these when they came out. Quite good-looking, straight six engine, RWD, 6-speed manual and Lexus build quality. What's not to like? The only negative that I remember was that they were a bit lacking in power and torque compared to the BMW. Surely not Toyota!
4k would also get me into an early IS250. More power (but more weight) and probably more cabin and boot space but I don't remember the reviews ever being that glowing (other than for the ISF). Are these V6 now?
Other options? I really fancy an old Mercedes-Benz 190E (even a humble 2 litre), as something a bit different and as a comfortable, over-engineered old-school Mercedes but they are a bit lacking in modern safety features. Mondeo ST220 is a nice car but wrong wheel drive and a bit "council" and same for the VAG options. For instance, the Skoda Octavia vRS is a great car and great value but a little bit dull perhaps?
My friend has a diesel one of these (X-Type) and loves it and my wife's grandfather used to have a V6 Sport that I often admired. Despite being often dismissed as not a proper Jag, I always thought they were quite nice-looking cars and very good value. All the later models I see seem to be 2.5s. Did they also not do a 3.0? AWD is better than FWD but is it a decent AWD system? Haldex?
Despite being FWD, I have also always secretly admired the V6 ZTs, especially in X-Power Grey sans spoiler. A bit light on power and becoming more difficult to find but a great chassis for a FWD by all accounts?
Any thoughts/experiences on any of these options would be most welcome.
So, I'm looking for something a bit nicer than the Civic, preferably a 4 door saloon, manual transmission, 6-pot and RWD, as most of my cars have been FWD and I'm getting a bit bored with it now. BUDGET 3-4K.
The obvious choice is an E46 BMW 325i/330i Sport (2001-2005 to anyone that doesn't do E numbers)! It seems like I should get quite a nice one in my budget, as they are cheaper than coupes, I love BMW's straight-six engines and happen to think that it's one of the nicest looking saloons of its time. I even like the 18" cross-spoke wheels, which remind me of the ones on my old E30 325i.
However, on paper the boot looks pretty small compared to other contemporary saloons (I don't know how this pans out in reality?), it is the obvious choice (which I tend to shy away from) and having owned some German cars of similar age (VWs, Mercedes), I know that they can suffer from some niggly and expensive faults. Incidentally, my 15 year old E30 was bulletproof in terms of reliability!
My last three cars have been Japanese (Subaru, Toyota, Honda) and I love the fact that they just work and just don't seem to go wrong. If only the Japanese made a car like the 3-Series I thought! Hang on a minute! How about these?
I remember quite liking these when they came out. Quite good-looking, straight six engine, RWD, 6-speed manual and Lexus build quality. What's not to like? The only negative that I remember was that they were a bit lacking in power and torque compared to the BMW. Surely not Toyota!
4k would also get me into an early IS250. More power (but more weight) and probably more cabin and boot space but I don't remember the reviews ever being that glowing (other than for the ISF). Are these V6 now?
Other options? I really fancy an old Mercedes-Benz 190E (even a humble 2 litre), as something a bit different and as a comfortable, over-engineered old-school Mercedes but they are a bit lacking in modern safety features. Mondeo ST220 is a nice car but wrong wheel drive and a bit "council" and same for the VAG options. For instance, the Skoda Octavia vRS is a great car and great value but a little bit dull perhaps?
My friend has a diesel one of these (X-Type) and loves it and my wife's grandfather used to have a V6 Sport that I often admired. Despite being often dismissed as not a proper Jag, I always thought they were quite nice-looking cars and very good value. All the later models I see seem to be 2.5s. Did they also not do a 3.0? AWD is better than FWD but is it a decent AWD system? Haldex?
Despite being FWD, I have also always secretly admired the V6 ZTs, especially in X-Power Grey sans spoiler. A bit light on power and becoming more difficult to find but a great chassis for a FWD by all accounts?
Any thoughts/experiences on any of these options would be most welcome.
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 2nd March 16:49
I had an IS200 at the same time as a friend had a 330 of that age. The BMW was a much nicer car to be in, and the boot was bigger. Not that I had any complaints about the IS200, apart from it eating tyres for fun! it was super reliable and refined. The BMW just felt a step up in every aspect.
The IS250/220D I was given as courtesy cars whilst mine was being serviced were very nice....
The IS250/220D I was given as courtesy cars whilst mine was being serviced were very nice....
bumrar said:
I had an IS200 at the same time as a friend had a 330 of that age. The BMW was a much nicer car to be in, and the boot was bigger. Not that I had any complaints about the IS200, apart from it eating tyres for fun! it was super reliable and refined. The BMW just felt a step up in every aspect.
The IS250/220D I was given as courtesy cars whilst mine was being serviced were very nice....
Thank you. I thought that might be the case, which I guess is why the BMW is so popular. I'm guessing the IS200 isn't that quick? Worth trying an IS250 though perhaps.The IS250/220D I was given as courtesy cars whilst mine was being serviced were very nice....
I really like the IS250, but if you go for one then it really needs to be auto as the manual gearbox was not well received IIRC. I've not got direct experience but I think I remember reading reports of a notchy gearshift, which contrasted poorly with the smoothness of the automatic. The manual is also significantly worse for CO2 emissions, placing it into a higher tax bracket.
The auto is excellent but you want a manual, so I don't think it will provide what you are looking for.
It's a shame that the earlier IS300 is auto only, as that would address the power deficiency of the IS200.
The auto is excellent but you want a manual, so I don't think it will provide what you are looking for.
It's a shame that the earlier IS300 is auto only, as that would address the power deficiency of the IS200.
Car Fan said:
I really like the IS250, but if you go for one then it really needs to be auto as the manual gearbox was not well received IIRC. I've not got direct experience but I think I remember reading reports of a notchy gearshift, which contrasted poorly with the smoothness of the automatic. The manual is also significantly worse for CO2 emissions, placing it into a higher tax bracket.
The auto is excellent but you want a manual, so I don't think it will provide what you are looking for.
It's a shame that the earlier IS300 is auto only, as that would address the power deficiency of the IS200.
Thanks for that. The auto is excellent but you want a manual, so I don't think it will provide what you are looking for.
It's a shame that the earlier IS300 is auto only, as that would address the power deficiency of the IS200.
I vaguely remember reading that about the manuals too but didn't know about the higher emissions. I don't dislike autos. In fact if I was going for an ordinary daily and a bonkers weekend car, then I think an auto would be a good choice in the daily. However, I want something that's going to be more enjoyable to drive at the weekend than what I currently have (whilst still being safe, comfortable and practical) so that I don't feel so bad not being able to use the sports car at the weekend when I have the wife and kids in tow. Short of a C63 AMG perhaps, for me, that means a manual transmission! Loved my IS200, but they could do with more power. It's not that they're really slow, but I think they feel slower than they are because they are so smooth and refined. Brilliant cars though and they generally don't go wrong ever. Tyres and brakes was all mine ever needed. I have an E46 330 at the moment and it's a different league in terms of performance but I think the Lexus was a nicer car.
white_goodman said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. Sounds like the Lexus is very reliable as I thought but perhaps not as fast or fun as the BMW? Any thoughts on the X-Type or MG ZT?
Passengered a bit in the V6 X-type. Nice seats, good ride, bit of an odd dashboard (felt very much like a vertical wall, whereas in the E46 your feet disappear deep into the footwell). Considering their price, a bargain, as they're rather unfashionable.I have an IS220D.
Positives: Lovely place to sit, 17bhp, smooth as silk at 70mph, 44mpg.
Negatives: Manual gearchange is as bad as they say
V6 auto petrol is lovely, but I do a lot of mway miles temporarily right now so I need diesel.
5k would buy a lot more lexus than BMW in my opinion is leagues ahead in cabin comfort. DVD, sat nav, posh stereo, leather, all mod cons, lowish miles and a lovely engine. I know what I would get.
Positives: Lovely place to sit, 17bhp, smooth as silk at 70mph, 44mpg.
Negatives: Manual gearchange is as bad as they say
V6 auto petrol is lovely, but I do a lot of mway miles temporarily right now so I need diesel.
5k would buy a lot more lexus than BMW in my opinion is leagues ahead in cabin comfort. DVD, sat nav, posh stereo, leather, all mod cons, lowish miles and a lovely engine. I know what I would get.
IS250 is indeed a V6.
I own an IS200 Sport.
You've kind of summed it up, minus the slightly rubbish fuel consumption.
It's a 2.0 six (vs the 320is 2.2 six) so it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Power of a 2.0 four cylinder. Fuel consumption of a bigger inline six. It is smooth though.
The IS200 6MT isn't as slow as the 0-60 makes it look.
It's got a really short gearbox, so you have to change up to 3rd to hit 60. Also note that it turns over at 4k doing 80mph. Fuel consumption is way better at 70.
It's still not quick though.
I like mine, but I'd honestly recommend the 300 over a 200, even with the autobox. Furiously rowing to make progress just doesn't suit the general waftiness of the car imo.
It's a pleasant enough thing to drive to work in. Seats are good, stereo is good (minus the break-y CD autochanger), drives OK.
Alternately, for your budget you might be able to pick up either an Altezza RS200 or a TTE Supercharged IS200.
The RS200 had a high revving high strung 3S-GE four cylinder making 200 odd. Revs out to 8,200. It's a fairly tricked out iteration of the 3S engine. The cars did get imported and you do see them for sale every so often. A lot of them seem to have been thrashed would be my main reservation.
The IS200 had a dealer installed supercharger kit made by Team Toyota Europe. It used an Eaton M62 (same as was used on various Kompressor mercs). The cars do come up for sale every so often.
To my mind, the nice thing about the Lexus is that it was a grandad car. If you have a look around you can find really well looked after examples.
I own an IS200 Sport.
You've kind of summed it up, minus the slightly rubbish fuel consumption.
It's a 2.0 six (vs the 320is 2.2 six) so it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Power of a 2.0 four cylinder. Fuel consumption of a bigger inline six. It is smooth though.
The IS200 6MT isn't as slow as the 0-60 makes it look.
It's got a really short gearbox, so you have to change up to 3rd to hit 60. Also note that it turns over at 4k doing 80mph. Fuel consumption is way better at 70.
It's still not quick though.
I like mine, but I'd honestly recommend the 300 over a 200, even with the autobox. Furiously rowing to make progress just doesn't suit the general waftiness of the car imo.
It's a pleasant enough thing to drive to work in. Seats are good, stereo is good (minus the break-y CD autochanger), drives OK.
Alternately, for your budget you might be able to pick up either an Altezza RS200 or a TTE Supercharged IS200.
The RS200 had a high revving high strung 3S-GE four cylinder making 200 odd. Revs out to 8,200. It's a fairly tricked out iteration of the 3S engine. The cars did get imported and you do see them for sale every so often. A lot of them seem to have been thrashed would be my main reservation.
The IS200 had a dealer installed supercharger kit made by Team Toyota Europe. It used an Eaton M62 (same as was used on various Kompressor mercs). The cars do come up for sale every so often.
To my mind, the nice thing about the Lexus is that it was a grandad car. If you have a look around you can find really well looked after examples.
Horse Pop said:
IS250 is indeed a V6.
I own an IS200 Sport.
You've kind of summed it up, minus the slightly rubbish fuel consumption.
It's a 2.0 six (vs the 320is 2.2 six) so it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Power of a 2.0 four cylinder. Fuel consumption of a bigger inline six. It is smooth though.
The IS200 6MT isn't as slow as the 0-60 makes it look.
It's got a really short gearbox, so you have to change up to 3rd to hit 60. Also note that it turns over at 4k doing 80mph. Fuel consumption is way better at 70.
It's still not quick though.
I like mine, but I'd honestly recommend the 300 over a 200, even with the autobox. Furiously rowing to make progress just doesn't suit the general waftiness of the car imo.
It's a pleasant enough thing to drive to work in. Seats are good, stereo is good (minus the break-y CD autochanger), drives OK.
Alternately, for your budget you might be able to pick up either an Altezza RS200 or a TTE Supercharged IS200.
The RS200 had a high revving high strung 3S-GE four cylinder making 200 odd. Revs out to 8,200. It's a fairly tricked out iteration of the 3S engine. The cars did get imported and you do see them for sale every so often. A lot of them seem to have been thrashed would be my main reservation.
The IS200 had a dealer installed supercharger kit made by Team Toyota Europe. It used an Eaton M62 (same as was used on various Kompressor mercs). The cars do come up for sale every so often.
To my mind, the nice thing about the Lexus is that it was a grandad car. If you have a look around you can find really well looked after examples.
Doesn't the IS200 Sport you have come with a Torsen diff as well?I own an IS200 Sport.
You've kind of summed it up, minus the slightly rubbish fuel consumption.
It's a 2.0 six (vs the 320is 2.2 six) so it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Power of a 2.0 four cylinder. Fuel consumption of a bigger inline six. It is smooth though.
The IS200 6MT isn't as slow as the 0-60 makes it look.
It's got a really short gearbox, so you have to change up to 3rd to hit 60. Also note that it turns over at 4k doing 80mph. Fuel consumption is way better at 70.
It's still not quick though.
I like mine, but I'd honestly recommend the 300 over a 200, even with the autobox. Furiously rowing to make progress just doesn't suit the general waftiness of the car imo.
It's a pleasant enough thing to drive to work in. Seats are good, stereo is good (minus the break-y CD autochanger), drives OK.
Alternately, for your budget you might be able to pick up either an Altezza RS200 or a TTE Supercharged IS200.
The RS200 had a high revving high strung 3S-GE four cylinder making 200 odd. Revs out to 8,200. It's a fairly tricked out iteration of the 3S engine. The cars did get imported and you do see them for sale every so often. A lot of them seem to have been thrashed would be my main reservation.
The IS200 had a dealer installed supercharger kit made by Team Toyota Europe. It used an Eaton M62 (same as was used on various Kompressor mercs). The cars do come up for sale every so often.
To my mind, the nice thing about the Lexus is that it was a grandad car. If you have a look around you can find really well looked after examples.
Yes.
S = base model. No sunroof. Usually cloth manual seats. 6 speaker stereo.
SE = next model up. Sunroof. Usually leather heated electric seats. 8 speaker stero.
Sport = SE + lowering springs, torsen diff, some boy racer interior bits, drug dealer tints.
TBH though, it's easy enough to come by the LSD if you don't have one.
S = base model. No sunroof. Usually cloth manual seats. 6 speaker stereo.
SE = next model up. Sunroof. Usually leather heated electric seats. 8 speaker stero.
Sport = SE + lowering springs, torsen diff, some boy racer interior bits, drug dealer tints.
TBH though, it's easy enough to come by the LSD if you don't have one.
Here's a bit of blurb from the time
IS200 test figures
IS300 test figures
They took along an IS200 to the Annual Handling Day event - not the fastest but ranked above the ST200, Audi TT, Audi S3, 206Gti, and Punto HGT
IS200 test figures
IS300 test figures
They took along an IS200 to the Annual Handling Day event - not the fastest but ranked above the ST200, Audi TT, Audi S3, 206Gti, and Punto HGT
Edited by s m on Monday 7th March 00:21
Edited by s m on Monday 7th March 00:30
Horse Pop said:
The IS200 had a dealer installed supercharger kit made by Team Toyota Europe. It used an Eaton M62 (same as was used on various Kompressor mercs). The cars do come up for sale every so often.
Interesting. I've never heard of that. I thought I hated the IS200 but I think I'd quite like that supercharged version you mentionIlovejapcrap said:
Can't talk you into gs300 instead ?
Unlikely - OP apparently has 2 working legs! Why did Toyota make the grunty model auto only FFS? Wasted opportunity for sure!How can any IS 200 begin to compare to an E46 330i (or even 320i/325i)?
It may be the car in front, but it is in the f*cking way!
Had a is200 sport right after a impreza, which didn't help the Lexus, it was comfy and smooth as I expected it to be, be it was boring to drive, had really weired gear ratios, and was as bad on fuel as the scooby, so it lasted but a year.
Wouldn't put me off another Lexus at some point, but not one of those, the is300 would address the power deficiency, or the SC version should you ever be able to source one.
Wouldn't put me off another Lexus at some point, but not one of those, the is300 would address the power deficiency, or the SC version should you ever be able to source one.
OP, thinking pragmatically, a 3-4k budget likely has you looking at a 10-15 yr old car with relatively high mileage... I would ask everyone, of the choices there, which is going to give you the least hassle. By any given stretch it's a Lexus.
If you can get into a mk2 IS250 v6 auto I would be all over that. No it's not a spirited drivers car but the multitude of positives outweigh the negative in my view. And to clarify, I had an e46 318i estate that I liked a lot, so I have owned both cars. The beemer definitely more interesting to drive, but the Lexus absolute owns it on reliability, comfort and toys. Guess it comes down to what you think is the priority - certainly an E46 can be very rewarding.
If you can get into a mk2 IS250 v6 auto I would be all over that. No it's not a spirited drivers car but the multitude of positives outweigh the negative in my view. And to clarify, I had an e46 318i estate that I liked a lot, so I have owned both cars. The beemer definitely more interesting to drive, but the Lexus absolute owns it on reliability, comfort and toys. Guess it comes down to what you think is the priority - certainly an E46 can be very rewarding.
My IS200 sport was 100% reliable though the sills rotted, with a set of tein springs it really handled well and it has something the BMWs you mention dont have and really miss (Ive had plenty of e36s/46s/39s) and that is an LSD. Not the fastest car but a nice engine (sounds really well with a cone filter) and on B roads is quicker than it should be. Handles well, brakes are good, cabin is well built and comfy. Gear change is better than the BMWs and I prefered the pedals in the Lexus. And its so easy to get the back end out on roundabouts or wherever you want to slide it. Really controllable when its sliding and handles well when you don't want it to.
The M52/54 engine in the E46 is sublime and very reliable though, much more torque and sounds lovely, really heavy flywheel and no LSD means sideways antics aren't very good. An LSD is about £900 to fit and not worth it on an older car really. E46s are also nowhere near as nicely finished as the E39 BMWs I had before which really put me off, just silly things like plastic door pockets compared to material lined ones in the 5 series.
I did have a 523 E39 that had over 240,000 miles on it with just the usual cooling system replacement needed and it was put sideways a lot, hillclimbed, used on a track day and all sorts so really what Im getting at is both is good, the E46 will be faster and a better cruiser, the is handles better and can be a real hooligans car, but needs another 50 horsepower to really be excellent. The IS200 was a bit rubbish on fuel compared to even my 2.8 litre BMWs.
For your money you could get an import Altezza rs200, which is an IS200 with a 4 cylinder 210 horsepower engine and LSD. They are brilliant cars.
The M52/54 engine in the E46 is sublime and very reliable though, much more torque and sounds lovely, really heavy flywheel and no LSD means sideways antics aren't very good. An LSD is about £900 to fit and not worth it on an older car really. E46s are also nowhere near as nicely finished as the E39 BMWs I had before which really put me off, just silly things like plastic door pockets compared to material lined ones in the 5 series.
I did have a 523 E39 that had over 240,000 miles on it with just the usual cooling system replacement needed and it was put sideways a lot, hillclimbed, used on a track day and all sorts so really what Im getting at is both is good, the E46 will be faster and a better cruiser, the is handles better and can be a real hooligans car, but needs another 50 horsepower to really be excellent. The IS200 was a bit rubbish on fuel compared to even my 2.8 litre BMWs.
For your money you could get an import Altezza rs200, which is an IS200 with a 4 cylinder 210 horsepower engine and LSD. They are brilliant cars.
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