Son's First Car and Dad's Man Maths Dilemma....
Discussion
Very very long time lurker and pretty much first time poster..... but major dilemma going around and around in my house, so thought I'd throw it out there for some alternative options.
Back in 2016 I managed to opt out of my company car scheme and bought myself a Mini JCW on a 4 year PCP. Was only doing 8-10k miles/year and everything was brilliant, effectively saving myself £200 a month in tax which the family promptly spent..... and have been doing so ever since.
A year later, new role at work and I'm now doing more like 18k a year, so now double my PCP mileage with two years to go and looking like could be negative at the end of it, maybe even £2k or so. But hey ho, I absolutely love the car, getting 45mpg on the twice weekly 200 mile run down the M5 and back and work is currently paying for the fuel as I'm still technically home based....
However, its now 2 years old and just hitting 30k miles on a 10kpa PCP. But there is always a deal when you want new metal isnt there? And its two years away yet, so dont worry about it!
But then in 6 months time, my son will be 17 and I want to get him on his way, driving lessons etc. but there ain't no way that he's driving the JCW (insurance and I'm OCD with it).
So my thinking was - spend a couple of thousand on a 10yo motor with 50-60k on the clock, I use it Mon-Thur for work, he uses it evenings, Fri-Sun and holidays to learn in and eventually to do whatever in.
That gets my Mini miles way back down to say 2-3kpa as a weekend toy and should balance up the PCP, and he gets low cost freedom at the weekend. A family pool car kind of thing. Man maths says it works as it will limit the negative equity and therefore almost pay for itself. And if I have any breakdown issues, or my lad needs a car in the week, I just grab the Mini for a couple of days for work while its sorted.
Man maths also says it sets a dangerous precedent to replace the Mini with something significantly less practical in two years time.... as it wont have to commute 18kpa so fuel etc. becomes irrelevant (always wanted a GT-R).
Insurance wise, he needs his own policy so that he can build up an NCB and also he doesnt jeopardise my 10+ years of NCB.
Questions....
- can he have a blackbox policy on the car, at the same time, can I have a second non-blackbox policy on the car?
- I would be the main driver, but dont want him as named on my policy as he wont build his NCB and it puts mine at risk - any legit way around this?
- Any family car policies / multi-car policies cater for this? Wife has a car, I drive it, she never drives the mini.
- Got some black box quotes for £800-£1300 for £2k, Pug 207's, Polo's etc running 3kpa miles - any other good suggestions?
- what have other people done for their sons and daughters - anyone out there running a family pool car!?!
Cheers
D
Back in 2016 I managed to opt out of my company car scheme and bought myself a Mini JCW on a 4 year PCP. Was only doing 8-10k miles/year and everything was brilliant, effectively saving myself £200 a month in tax which the family promptly spent..... and have been doing so ever since.
A year later, new role at work and I'm now doing more like 18k a year, so now double my PCP mileage with two years to go and looking like could be negative at the end of it, maybe even £2k or so. But hey ho, I absolutely love the car, getting 45mpg on the twice weekly 200 mile run down the M5 and back and work is currently paying for the fuel as I'm still technically home based....
However, its now 2 years old and just hitting 30k miles on a 10kpa PCP. But there is always a deal when you want new metal isnt there? And its two years away yet, so dont worry about it!
But then in 6 months time, my son will be 17 and I want to get him on his way, driving lessons etc. but there ain't no way that he's driving the JCW (insurance and I'm OCD with it).
So my thinking was - spend a couple of thousand on a 10yo motor with 50-60k on the clock, I use it Mon-Thur for work, he uses it evenings, Fri-Sun and holidays to learn in and eventually to do whatever in.
That gets my Mini miles way back down to say 2-3kpa as a weekend toy and should balance up the PCP, and he gets low cost freedom at the weekend. A family pool car kind of thing. Man maths says it works as it will limit the negative equity and therefore almost pay for itself. And if I have any breakdown issues, or my lad needs a car in the week, I just grab the Mini for a couple of days for work while its sorted.
Man maths also says it sets a dangerous precedent to replace the Mini with something significantly less practical in two years time.... as it wont have to commute 18kpa so fuel etc. becomes irrelevant (always wanted a GT-R).
Insurance wise, he needs his own policy so that he can build up an NCB and also he doesnt jeopardise my 10+ years of NCB.
Questions....
- can he have a blackbox policy on the car, at the same time, can I have a second non-blackbox policy on the car?
- I would be the main driver, but dont want him as named on my policy as he wont build his NCB and it puts mine at risk - any legit way around this?
- Any family car policies / multi-car policies cater for this? Wife has a car, I drive it, she never drives the mini.
- Got some black box quotes for £800-£1300 for £2k, Pug 207's, Polo's etc running 3kpa miles - any other good suggestions?
- what have other people done for their sons and daughters - anyone out there running a family pool car!?!
Cheers
D
Add yourself as a named driver to the policy which should bring it down. the downside is that any speeders you get reflect on that.
Surprised at your quotes as I had to pay nearly £1100 for my 17 year old daughter on a black box policy for an £800 Fiat Panda and that was reduced several hundred, with me added as an additional driver. Tried many cars but that was cheapest - Group 1 of course. Ingenie give you minor refunds for good driving (but can take more if you drive badly) so we got about $£88 back, over the year.
The only good thing was that, after a year of driving like a saint, her Ingenie renewal was not much cheaper but a comparison site threw up a non black box policy for £680 which was a no-brainer.
Try different additional drivers as different people carry different risks. I've only driven her car about twice.
Surprised at your quotes as I had to pay nearly £1100 for my 17 year old daughter on a black box policy for an £800 Fiat Panda and that was reduced several hundred, with me added as an additional driver. Tried many cars but that was cheapest - Group 1 of course. Ingenie give you minor refunds for good driving (but can take more if you drive badly) so we got about $£88 back, over the year.
The only good thing was that, after a year of driving like a saint, her Ingenie renewal was not much cheaper but a comparison site threw up a non black box policy for £680 which was a no-brainer.
Try different additional drivers as different people carry different risks. I've only driven her car about twice.
Get a van as his first car and you can use it too!
Sounds weird I know but my first car was a van I was having lessons but also Dad insured me on the company van I drove it every day and loved it, also made me amazing at reversing! Also means he can’t have a car full egging him on to drive like a cock!
Insurance was dirt cheap on an any driver policy as well
The transit connects have loads of toys and can look good with a few mods if he gets that bug!
Whilst my friends were driving like idiots in novas and corsas and getting pulled every 2 mins I blended in! Also surprisingly the women loved it too
Sounds weird I know but my first car was a van I was having lessons but also Dad insured me on the company van I drove it every day and loved it, also made me amazing at reversing! Also means he can’t have a car full egging him on to drive like a cock!
Insurance was dirt cheap on an any driver policy as well
The transit connects have loads of toys and can look good with a few mods if he gets that bug!
Whilst my friends were driving like idiots in novas and corsas and getting pulled every 2 mins I blended in! Also surprisingly the women loved it too
Pretty sure you can't run a black box and an ordinary policy at the same time - how would this work? You can't turn the black box off.
Another thing to bare in mind is if you're doing that sort of mileage, you surely want something comfortable rather than the smallest cheapest car you can?
Another thing to bare in mind is if you're doing that sort of mileage, you surely want something comfortable rather than the smallest cheapest car you can?
I have 3 teenage boys - Fiat Panda 1.1 Active is the way to go. We have 2 with the youngest due to join the ranks at Christmas. Both on black boxes at 3-5k a year. Insurance through Marmalade and they earn their own NCB.
First year is very expensive but the Panda costs peanuts to run and ours have been 100% reliable. No repairs required - just consumables. I spent about £1700 on each car.
My eldest wrote his off in his first year as an insured driver but his premium still fell in the second year.
Not sure whether I am a named driver or not - if it was cheaper I would be.
First year is very expensive but the Panda costs peanuts to run and ours have been 100% reliable. No repairs required - just consumables. I spent about £1700 on each car.
My eldest wrote his off in his first year as an insured driver but his premium still fell in the second year.
Not sure whether I am a named driver or not - if it was cheaper I would be.
lockhart flawse said:
I have 3 teenage boys - Fiat Panda 1.1 Active is the way to go. We have 2 with the youngest due to join the ranks at Christmas. Both on black boxes at 3-5k a year. Insurance through Marmalade and they earn their own NCB.
First year is very expensive but the Panda costs peanuts to run and ours have been 100% reliable. No repairs required - just consumables. I spent about £1700 on each car.
My eldest wrote his off in his first year as an insured driver but his premium still fell in the second year.
Not sure whether I am a named driver or not - if it was cheaper I would be.
My daughter's was a 1.1. It required a new screen pump (they all fail) which was a tenner on ebay.First year is very expensive but the Panda costs peanuts to run and ours have been 100% reliable. No repairs required - just consumables. I spent about £1700 on each car.
My eldest wrote his off in his first year as an insured driver but his premium still fell in the second year.
Not sure whether I am a named driver or not - if it was cheaper I would be.
She had to pay about £400 at the last MOT for various suspension/bearing things that had worn out after 10 years but it's always been reliable. Always liked them as hire cars, abroad and they do up to 60mpg on a black box.
Remember that when your offspring pass their test you have to inform the insurance company. At this point be prepared for a large increase in premium (it happens immediately rather than at renewal). It sort of makes sense in that the previously accompanied learner is now free to go off and do their own think. I guess the accident stats back this up. My experience was that my son's premium effectively doubled when he passed his test.
Couple of things...
1. You are aware you can't use your NCD on 2 cars or have your current insurers agreed a 'mirroring' ?
2. You can't have separate policies as effectively the car is insured twice, if its stolen which insurer would pay out ?
You effectively have two issues here:
1. you want to limit mileage of the Mini by buying an alternative daily, fairly straightforward but not with a 17 year old.
2. You have a 17 year old you want to get mobile, and can't in the way you are trying.
My advice:
Just keep using the mini, calculate the excess mileage fee and thats a fixed cost, at the end of the PCP return it.
Get an appropriate car for your son and insure him directly.
1. You are aware you can't use your NCD on 2 cars or have your current insurers agreed a 'mirroring' ?
2. You can't have separate policies as effectively the car is insured twice, if its stolen which insurer would pay out ?
You effectively have two issues here:
1. you want to limit mileage of the Mini by buying an alternative daily, fairly straightforward but not with a 17 year old.
2. You have a 17 year old you want to get mobile, and can't in the way you are trying.
My advice:
Just keep using the mini, calculate the excess mileage fee and thats a fixed cost, at the end of the PCP return it.
Get an appropriate car for your son and insure him directly.
Thanks guys, I was a bit surprised at the insurance, postcode may help, I'm a forty-something and my JCW is only £350/year fully comp with business use. Two years in from ditching the company car.
I just slapped his details into a couple of comparison sites and subtracted a year off his DOB. Citroen C1 came out cheapest at just over £800 with limited 3k miles. Didnt look at Panda, will do, wife has a 500x so Fiats are already in the blood.
ghost83, will look into the van thing, hadnt thought of that and very useful to have about, he's a cricketer so could sell it on the idea it will swallow the gear.... and always wants to go off with mates up to N. Wales scrambling, so its a possible!
TartanPaint, yeah, had been thinking those lines, will get a couple of comparison quotes later and see - and would make my life a bit more comfy Matthen.
Good point, how would I turn the blackbox off, some policies use mobile phone apps? Guess I would have to insure it separately for me, but two policies, one car is a no no?
My concern is I will be the main driver - the temptation for a lot of people is to put themselves down as the main driver to keep the premium low when they seldom use it. Here its the reverse.
I just slapped his details into a couple of comparison sites and subtracted a year off his DOB. Citroen C1 came out cheapest at just over £800 with limited 3k miles. Didnt look at Panda, will do, wife has a 500x so Fiats are already in the blood.
ghost83, will look into the van thing, hadnt thought of that and very useful to have about, he's a cricketer so could sell it on the idea it will swallow the gear.... and always wants to go off with mates up to N. Wales scrambling, so its a possible!
TartanPaint, yeah, had been thinking those lines, will get a couple of comparison quotes later and see - and would make my life a bit more comfy Matthen.
Good point, how would I turn the blackbox off, some policies use mobile phone apps? Guess I would have to insure it separately for me, but two policies, one car is a no no?
My concern is I will be the main driver - the temptation for a lot of people is to put themselves down as the main driver to keep the premium low when they seldom use it. Here its the reverse.
ghost83 said:
Get a van as his first car and you can use it too!
Sounds weird I know but my first car was a van I was having lessons but also Dad insured me on the company van I drove it every day and loved it, also made me amazing at reversing! Also means he can’t have a car full egging him on to drive like a cock!
Insurance was dirt cheap on an any driver policy as well
The transit connects have loads of toys and can look good with a few mods if he gets that bug!
Whilst my friends were driving like idiots in novas and corsas and getting pulled every 2 mins I blended in! Also surprisingly the women loved it too
Yes but any NCB you accumulate will be "commercial" NCB, and not usable on a regular car policy later.Sounds weird I know but my first car was a van I was having lessons but also Dad insured me on the company van I drove it every day and loved it, also made me amazing at reversing! Also means he can’t have a car full egging him on to drive like a cock!
Insurance was dirt cheap on an any driver policy as well
The transit connects have loads of toys and can look good with a few mods if he gets that bug!
Whilst my friends were driving like idiots in novas and corsas and getting pulled every 2 mins I blended in! Also surprisingly the women loved it too
dibblecorse said:
Couple of things...
1. You are aware you can't use your NCD on 2 cars or have your current insurers agreed a 'mirroring' ?
2. You can't have separate policies as effectively the car is insured twice, if its stolen which insurer would pay out ?
You effectively have two issues here:
1. you want to limit mileage of the Mini by buying an alternative daily, fairly straightforward but not with a 17 year old.
2. You have a 17 year old you want to get mobile, and can't in the way you are trying.
My advice:
Just keep using the mini, calculate the excess mileage fee and thats a fixed cost, at the end of the PCP return it.
Get an appropriate car for your son and insure him directly.
Yeah, I think your probably correct, but Man Maths has taken hold and given me too many ideas1. You are aware you can't use your NCD on 2 cars or have your current insurers agreed a 'mirroring' ?
2. You can't have separate policies as effectively the car is insured twice, if its stolen which insurer would pay out ?
You effectively have two issues here:
1. you want to limit mileage of the Mini by buying an alternative daily, fairly straightforward but not with a 17 year old.
2. You have a 17 year old you want to get mobile, and can't in the way you are trying.
My advice:
Just keep using the mini, calculate the excess mileage fee and thats a fixed cost, at the end of the PCP return it.
Get an appropriate car for your son and insure him directly.
I'm 20 and my mum and dad drive my car on my policy when necessary if either of their car's break down mine will be their daily. I don't recommend a mk6 fiesta st with no black box tho as my insurance is an asshole lol. But there's nothing wrong with getting a lupo or something and using it as much as him for significantly less than I'm paying for myself and my two parents for 10k miles.
JCWbeast said:
Good point, how would I turn the blackbox off, some policies use mobile phone apps?
Don't think you can, the app is only a reporting tool it is not the black box, when my son had one on his car they phoned up when he was abroad travelling for 2 months to ask why the car wasn't being driven.JCWbeast said:
ghost83, will look into the van thing, hadnt thought of that and very useful to have about, he's a cricketer so could sell it on the idea it will swallow the gear.... and always wants to go off with mates up to N. Wales scrambling, so its a possible!
In this instance, the van also becomes (smelly) accomodation. I too had a van as my first car. It did not entirely put me off transporting extra people, they just had to hold on, FYI.
JCWbeast said:
My concern is I will be the main driver - the temptation for a lot of people is to put themselves down as the main driver to keep the premium low when they seldom use it. Here its the reverse.
Well you'll be paying for the higher risk so "shouldn't" be an issue? Effectively insurance thinks you are say doing 2,000 and your son 8,000 pa
when actually its the reverse of this?
I'd be tempted to just make sure he does various trips to keep his mileage up so you are more half and half then all criteria is satisfied ie he is the main driver accumulates his ncd you get some offset use and it all cast iron legit.....is there any reason you think he won't drive it that much? only once passed and 'free' so to speak, we all tended to use it or be used (mates lifts) more?
Does he work?
I'd be tempted to go to BMW and get cheap PCP on a diesel 1 series - an SE or something that you wouldn't mind trundling up and down the motorway in.
Should be able to pick one up for £250 a month and ask him to contribute £30 a week for his use of the car - you paying the rest.
Two year PCP would be £3120 to you - admittedly there would be no car to show for it at the end of the term but you've also removed the cost of mechanical failures as the car would be under warranty.
You get something new that you wouldn't mind covering long distances in, and he gets a 'nice' first car for minimal spend.
Insurance isn't too bad on them and even with a black box on a 116d you're hardly going to be racking up huge charges - if you're overly worried try Tesco Bank black box insurance. They're quite lenient and wont add additional charges until renewal time at which point he has a years NCB and can change provider anyway.
Just my 2p, expecting to get completely shot down for suggesting a PCP on a first car.
I'd be tempted to go to BMW and get cheap PCP on a diesel 1 series - an SE or something that you wouldn't mind trundling up and down the motorway in.
Should be able to pick one up for £250 a month and ask him to contribute £30 a week for his use of the car - you paying the rest.
Two year PCP would be £3120 to you - admittedly there would be no car to show for it at the end of the term but you've also removed the cost of mechanical failures as the car would be under warranty.
You get something new that you wouldn't mind covering long distances in, and he gets a 'nice' first car for minimal spend.
Insurance isn't too bad on them and even with a black box on a 116d you're hardly going to be racking up huge charges - if you're overly worried try Tesco Bank black box insurance. They're quite lenient and wont add additional charges until renewal time at which point he has a years NCB and can change provider anyway.
Just my 2p, expecting to get completely shot down for suggesting a PCP on a first car.
bompey said:
I know there are a lot of factors bit as a ballpark no what does a 17yr olds insurance usually cost in the first year. Bompey Jr is about to turn 17 and I'm trying to figure out what horrendous insurance bill to expect.
Best I could get was around £1100 for my 17 year old daughter - Group 1 Panda, parked on the street outside a South Wales address. Black box largely compulsory unless you want to pay nearer £2k.Add a mature additional driver to lower premium and insure several days in advance - next day adds a lot, believe it or not.
I chose Ingenie because they reward good driving so i got £88 back. Not the cheapest but they were all that ballpark.
As the premium can increase for bad driving, not always the best option and the Fiat Panda rolls on its suspension so can tell the gyro you're on a mission if you're not careful
She was worried at renewal because it was still over a grand but I found the comparison websites offer nearer £650 (all the Admiral group as it happens).
TartanPaint said:
Take a look at low-risk cars, the sort of things a 17 year old wouldn't normally drive. E.g. a Volvo V70 or something. I know a few people who have had far cheaper quotes on that sort of car than a small hatch of equal value.
Yeah, '08 plate 1.6S Volvo V40, 80k miles £2400 on Autotrader, £1043pa for insurance. Thats 17.5 years old, just passed test, (0 years, 0 months driving on full licence), £650 excess, owned the car 1 month. 3000miles a year. MoreThan Smart Wheels.He'd hate me for getting a Volvo I'm sure!
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