What sub-20k car is the "poor man's" M3?

[white_goodman]

Since the E46 M3 came out in (2001?), the M3 has pretty much been my dream daily driver/all-rounder. Fast, practical, balanced RWD handling, subtle styling and a killer engine but the thing that has always put me off is the potentially outlandish running costs. You may be able to pick up an E46 for not much these days but they're old cars now and cheap ones are likely to have expensive issues and the best examples will be expensive to buy, as the E46 M3 achieves modern classic status. I wouldn't envisage F8x M3s/M4s having many issues at their current age but at 30k+, they're still a little pricey. With many examples sitting between 15k-20k, the E9x M3 would appear to offer the best value at the moment, with potentially less "old" car issues but there are still well-documented issues and they're still going to have 60k car running costs. So, if you're not brave enough to take the plunge on an M3 for 15k-20k is there a package that can compare with the M3 for its combination of pace, balanced handling, excitement and practicality but with more robust reliability and less scary running costs?

The W204 C63 AMG is certainly on my radar if nothing but for that glorious 6.2 NA V8 engine but my preference is with a manual transmission and I suspect that running costs on a C63 could potentially be equally outlandish! So is the answer lesser 3-Series/C-Class models i.e. 335i/340i/335d etc or are they pretty dull in comparison to the M3?

I've heard that the M135i/M140i are possibly more focussed driver's cars than their bigger siblings? Does the Lexus IS-F's potential for Japanese reliability combined with M3 pace make it a better buy than a sub-20k M3?

So, what would your recommendations be for the "poor man's" M3?

[culpz]

ISF for me, as you already stated. Much less ruinous to run, bit more discreet, still has N/A V8 goodness. The automatic may not be to all tastes but, if i had an M3, i'd got for the DCT regardless.

Truth be told, the M3 is still the better car to drive. If you're on a bit of a budget though, the Lexus ain't a bad shout!

[LuS1fer]

2005-on Mustang GT but you'd have to like LHD.
What it lacks, in standard spec, is easily remedied.
That said, they do seem to be keeping their value at present.

[ZX10R NIN]

Simple one this.

Lexus IS-F

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

They're hard to find but well worth seeking out, the running costs of these are significantly lower than the equivalent RS4/M/AMG & they're performance is just off the equivalent German but it does mean you'll have an Auto.

There is one thing you could do to improve the car & that's talk to Fensport about the spring package that solves the slightly jiggly fidgety ride.

[white_goodman]

ZX10R NIN said:

Simple one this.

Lexus IS-F

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

They're hard to find but well worth seeking out, the running costs of these are significantly lower than the equivalent RS4/M/AMG & they're performance is just off the equivalent German but it does mean you'll have an Auto.

There is one thing you could do to improve the car & that's talk to Fensport about the spring package that solves the slightly jiggly fidgety ride.

I'd prefer a manual but could live with an auto, especially an 8-speed. It does have a certain cool/Q-car factor especially in dark grey/black and I like that most people wouldn't know what it is. I just haven't read much on PH from anyone that has owned/driven one. M3/C63 still seem to be the "go to" choices.

[Pistonheader101]

SL55 perhaps?

ZX10R NIN seems to know a lot more about mercs than most so perhaps he could chime in

[Shaoxter]

The answer is an E9x M3 and a warranty which you can easily get for less than £20k.

A C63 certainly isn't going to be cheaper to run, they have their share of issues too!

[nickod]

An E9x Alpina B3?

[irocfan]

Pistonheader101 said:

SL55 perhaps?

If you're thinking that you may as well try the SLK55

[white_goodman]

Pistonheader101 said:

SL55 perhaps?

ZX10R NIN seems to know a lot more about mercs than most so perhaps he could chime in

I have two kids, so must have four seats (but not necessarily 4 doors). Love those R230 SLs but aren't they potentially just as ruinous to run as an M3?

[ZX10R NIN]

white_goodman said:

I'd prefer a manual but could live with an auto, especially an 8-speed. It does have a certain cool/Q-car factor especially in dark grey/black and I like that most people wouldn't know what it is. I just haven't read much on PH from anyone that has owned/driven one. M3/C63 still seem to be the "go to" choices.

I went for the C63 but that was mainly due to me liking Mercedes torque laden V8's rather than high revving V8's ala the M3 (which is the way my brother went) I did test drive the IS-F but it's torque lite engine wasn't for me.

Now let me quantify that lite statement it's not that the IS-F/M3/RS4 don't have torque but they all reach peak torque
high up in the rev range apart from the AMG which is why I call the IS-F torque lite.

Have a read of this thread & PM some of the IS-F owners on there for their experiences (they'll normally all be positive) of ownership.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

If it has to be a Manual then I'd say take a good look at the 6.2 VXR8, they're a very good car with a sweet chassis & again are another car that has a good following.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

The SL55 although a good car, it's a very good GT/Motorway car (I know I had one) rather than a super saloon if you can live with two seats then I'd recommend the SLK55 it's a cracking car & with some choice upgrades it can be a real entertainer & again you won't see lots of them.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Talking of rare take a look at one of these, they're appreciating strongly dynamically they're a generation behind the E90/B7 RS4/IS-F but they're not far off & they're fun.

The gear changes are slow compared to modern cars but the box suits the engine & you can have a shift upgrade added to the car should (I had this & fair few other upgrades carried out on all my 55's) you wish.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

By the way I wouldn't call any of these a poor man's M3 they're all worthy alternatives, for example my brothers E90 M3 (with more than a few upgrades) is a great car when you're truly on it but my CLK63 wipes the floor with it on the other 345 days of the year IMO of course.

[white_goodman]

ZX10R NIN said:

I went for the C63 but that was mainly due to me liking Mercedes torque laden V8's rather than high revving V8's ala the M3 (which is the way my brother went) I did test drive the IS-F but it's torque lite engine wasn't for me.

Now let me quantify that lite statement it's not that the IS-F/M3/RS4 don't have torque but they all reach peak torque
high up in the rev range apart from the AMG which is why I call the IS-F torque lite.

Have a read of this thread & PM some of the IS-F owners on there for their experiences (they'll normally all be positive) of ownership.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

If it has to be a Manual then I'd say take a good look at the 6.2 VXR8, they're a very good car with a sweet chassis & again are another car that has a good following.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

The SL55 although a good car, it's a very good GT/Motorway car (I know I had one) rather than a super saloon if you can live with two seats then I'd recommend the SLK55 it's a cracking car & with some choice upgrades it can be a real entertainer & again you won't see lots of them.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Talking of rare take a look at one of these, they're appreciating strongly dynamically they're a generation behind the E90/B7 RS4/IS-F but they're not far off & they're fun.

The gear changes are slow compared to modern cars but the box suits the engine & you can have a shift upgrade added to the car should (I had this & fair few other upgrades carried out on all my 55's) you wish.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

By the way I wouldn't call any of these a poor man's M3 they're all worthy alternatives, for example my brothers E90 M3 (with more than a few upgrades) is a great car when you're truly on it but my CLK63 wipes the floor with it on the other 345 days of the year IMO of course.

Thanks for all that info. I like all the AMGs but 4 seats are a must. W203 probably the best-looking C-Class in my opinion but maybe a little old now? Having read up a bit more about them, I'm really tempted by the Lexus. The rarity appeals, as does the fact that only petrolheads will know what it is. The owners seem extremely happy with them and they appear to be pretty bulletproof reliability-wise too.

I'm guessing that a sub-AMG Merc or sub-M BMW isn't really a substitute for the real thing? I think the Lexus would probably still win for me but B8 Audi S4/S5?

[ZX10R NIN]

Neither would be a patch on the IS-F.

[cerb4.5lee]

ZX10R NIN said:

I went for the C63 but that was mainly due to me liking Mercedes torque laden V8's rather than high revving V8's ala the M3 (which is the way my brother went) I did test drive the IS-F but it's torque lite engine wasn't for me.

Now let me quantify that lite statement it's not that the IS-F/M3/RS4 don't have torque but they all reach peak torque
high up in the rev range apart from the AMG which is why I call the IS-F torque lite.

You have exactly the same view as me when it comes to V8's.

High rev V8's don't really do it for me, a gusty V8 engine is where its at.

[CSLchappie]

Shaoxter said:

The answer is an E9x M3 and a warranty which you can easily get for less than £20k.

A C63 certainly isn't going to be cheaper to run, they have their share of issues too!

Agreed, whats the most likely expensive problem with them, throttle actuators or bearing shells?

As brilliant as the engine and 8 speed ZF are in the x40i BMW's they can't hold a candle to some of the older M's in terms of overall handling, steering feel, ride composure, balance and control. If you're buying the car with driver involvement and satisfaction near the top of your list I think you'll end up disappointed once the novelty of mashing the pedal to the floor and hearing all the farty pops and bangs has worn off.

[ZX10R NIN]

Given the choice I chose the CLK63 it was the better car IMO than the E92 M3 & over the years has cost me less to run than my brothers M3.

Test drive them & see what suits OP.

[ZX10R NIN]

Talking of which this one seems to have appeared it's cheap, I don't think they realise what they have, OP go & snap this up before they work it out.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

[white_goodman]

Just to resurrect my thread and rather than starting a new one. I'm still on the fence on whether to go for a new/nearly new junior hot hatch (Cooper S/JCW/Abarth 595/Fiesta ST) to replace my R56 Cooper or something a bit more "special". I used to own a "Blobeye" Impreza WRX and it was very reliable and inexpensive to run (petrol aside). It seems that to go up a step in performance from that, you're looking at significantly higher running costs and actually 0-60 in 5.9 seconds for that car is still setting a pretty high bar. So, accepting that some of the suggestions so far are going to be equally expensive to run as an E90/E92 M3 (AMG) and others seem to be rarer and more difficult to find (ISF/VXR8), what "high performance" cars offer the LOWEST RUNNING COSTS for 20k or less? I'm willing to spread the net a bit further to include 2-seater coupes/convertibles and automatics but must meet the following criteria.

More than 4 cylinders
Not a traditional hatchback (a coupe with a "hatchback" is fine)
300bhp+
150mph+ top speed
0-60 in low 5s or less
RWD (or at a push rear-biased AWD)
Preferably a manual transmission

So before I go out and buy a new/nearly new small hot hatch, what more exciting used alternatives should I consider? I guess the Americans have the option of V8 Mustangs/Camaros/Chargers/Challengers. Relatively cheap to run and fix compared to European performance cars but still offering a similar level of performance. I'm not really seeing an equivalent over here (RHD Mustang GTs don't seem to be down to 20k as of yet). Nissan 350Z maybe?

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 14th May 21:38

[Prinny]

I don’t think you’ll lose money on a Monaro/VXR8. They’ve held price/appreciated (ok - maybe not index-linked) the last few years.

It’s a simple, reliable American v8.

Can do 30mpg if you’re sensible on the motorway. Can be tuned to silly amounts of power if you want to.

With the exception of the Lexus, everything else is more fragile/tempermental/ high prices ‘because AMG/M/RS’.

I bought an M6, but it’s not exactly cheap to run, so I can’t justify it to you. Everything else obvious has been covered, I think.

[white_goodman]

Prinny said:

I don’t think you’ll lose money on a Monaro/VXR8. They’ve held price/appreciated (ok - maybe not index-linked) the last few years.

It’s a simple, reliable American v8.

Can do 30mpg if you’re sensible on the motorway. Can be tuned to silly amounts of power if you want to.

With the exception of the Lexus, everything else is more fragile/tempermental/ high prices ‘because AMG/M/RS’.

I bought an M6, but it’s not exactly cheap to run, so I can’t justify it to you. Everything else obvious has been covered, I think.

OK thanks. Will investigate this option further. The Americans/Australians seem to have the reliable, cheap performance thing down pretty well. We used to live on a fairly average housing estate but in my road, we had my WRX, a mk5 Golf R32, a B7 RS4 Avant and a yellow Monaro! They all sounded pretty good but the Monaro probably sounded the best.