1st post: hello and suggestion for small+fun+light RWD car

[CorradoB]

Hello everybody,

after several (SEVERAL) years of indeed very productive lurking, I finally took the decision to make the big leap and introduce myself to the PH community. Italian currently living in Spain, extremely passionate for classic sports and race cars, had looked after several different vehicles over the last 20 years. I am currently dealing with a couple of 1960-1970 racing and road-legal GTs, two "youngtimers" (1988 Lancia Delta Integrale 8v and 1995 Jaguar XJR w/ factory manual gearbox), and a classic-to-be (2007 V8 Vantage manual). I have been reading this forum for more than 10 years now, and have always found it a great source for inspiration - thank you!

My most recent addition, the Delta, helped me to discover again the pleasure of driving a small, little, light car in a twisty (and sometimes bumpy) B-road. Since on one side the Delta is a very well preserved example (40k miles) and on the other side I am not too eager to verify if the horror-stories on the Delta's reliability are myth or reality... I am willing to add something else to the garage (when possible).

This is exactly what led me to the decision of bothering this community today. Although I feel like I might have done already enough (too much?) thinking and analysis, before giving up with further ruminations I would like to kindly ask your (passionate) suggestions on the below open point:
In your opinion what could be a fun, small, light RWD car mainly for road use (with some occasional track days)?

To help narrowing down the choices
- cars from circa 1995 on (don't want something too old, and I do value a little bit of passive safety)
- I am clinically allergic to depreciation so strong preference for cars that already took the largest hit in terms of value drop
- If value doesn't have the tendency to self-destroy autonomously (see above point) budget can be a bit flexible (say 5k€-30k€)
- "melodious" 6 cyl a big plus
- NA and manual gearbox "compulsory"
- would love to stay well below 1100-1200kg, or a least the car should behave as a light one
- should provide that "big smile" effect every time you approach a bend
- it needs to be small/narrow, as I am not having fun at all with large cars on tight roads
- LSD (if not present no big deal as long as it is easy to fit one)
Exclusions (not because I don't like them but since I already owned them in the past and would like to try something different): MX5 NA, S2000, Z4M Coupe (although I still have a BIG thing for any Z4 Coupe).
I already have 2 potential candidates in mind but would love to hear ideas

Please forgive me for this "once-another-whatcar-thread", but while on one side I am managing to find a big variety of highly detailed "which trackday car" threads, it is a bit more difficult finding a dedicate discussion on great driving small cars that are not superminis or MX5s

Thank you in advance!

Cheers,
Corrado

Edited by CorradoB on Tuesday 28th July 01:01

Edited by CorradoB on Tuesday 28th July 01:02

Edited by CorradoB on Tuesday 28th July 01:13

[OzzyR1]

Lotus Exige S2

Might be top end of your budget but fits the bill and will probably retain value rather than depreciate further.

[CorradoB]

Hi Ozzy, thanks for this great one. Lovely car, I didn't mention but I love NA vs forced induction and although the variable valve timing can be frustrating in real world (see S2000) I think the featherweight of the Exige S2 would help a lot to minimize the issue (and compensate back generously). Totally agree on the value-holding, only issue is that LHD cars here in Southern Europe are quite pricey and decent ones are definitely above 30k€.
However, do they drive well also on not-so-perfect roads? i.e. better than an Elise? Was afraid any Exige could have been too much track-focused
thanks!
cheers,
Corrado

[Mr Tidy]

Welcome Corrado!

As much as a BMW Z4 Coupe may fit some of your criteria they will never get close to your 1100/1200kg weight preference! More like 1400 or 1500kg sadly.

I bought my 1st 3.0Si Coupe in 2014 and my 2nd in 2016 but inevitably ended up buying an M Coupe last December!

Based on my experience I'd say a 3.0Si was 80% of the experience for 50% of the money, but that extra 20% is just amazing - albeit at an "M" price premium!

It depends what you want, and what you are prepared to pay - but there are always other options as you have mentioned.

Just buy what you really want and enjoy it!

But the M does have an LSD and hydraulic PAS!

Gratuitous photo time I suppose.

Edited by Mr Tidy on Tuesday 28th July 01:46

[sherman]

How about a 90's toyota supra? If you can find an unmolested one

[GravelBen]

sherman said:

How about a 90's toyota supra? If you can find an unmolested one

Not when light weight is one of the main criteria! Hard to think of anything 6-cyl that comes anywhere close to sub-1200kg.

BRZ/GT86 might be an option if ~1250kg is light enough, still 4-cyl though.

NC or ND MX5?

How heavy is a Boxster?

Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 28th July 03:07

[Mr Tidy]

GravelBen said:

Not when light weight is one of the main criteria! Hard to think of anything 6-cyl that comes anywhere close to sub-1200kg.

BRZ/GT86 might be an option if ~1250kg is light enough, still 4-cyl though.

NC or ND MX5?

footnote]Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 28th July 03:07[/footnote]

Weight doesn't seem to be any more of a criteria than 6-cyl and manual!

I'd live with some weight for a straight 6 - which is why I bought a Z4 after a test drive in a GT86.

[psymonr]

Not as 'small' as you could go (i.e. it's a little shorter than an S2000, but unfortunately a bit wider too), but what about a TVR Chimera? Light, Rover V8, already done it's depreciating, I believe they come with LSDs too, might be worth a look

Also, any chance of a post about all of your cars? I'd love to hear/see more about your 1960-70 road legal GTs! As well as your Delta and the XJR!

[s m]

BMW Z3 2.8 Coupe or the Z3M Coupe

Bit heavier than your ideal but the 2.8 is available on the Continent
LSD available - not too large
6-pots

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1244795

Edited by s m on Tuesday 28th July 07:29

[Magnum 475]

Obvious answer is either Boxster S or Cayman S.

Not quite sub 1200kg, but excellent handling and a great sounding 6. Just avoid the 987.1 3.4 engine due to the high borkage risk!!

[Bigus]

Not in your stated category regarding age but qualifies on six cylinder and nearly on weight but over qualifies on safety and reliability..... 350 z

[2gins]

Again, this has TVR written all over it. Cerb speed 6 would be top of budget but Chim also a good shout.
Only issue would be finding a competent specialist for the more intense maintenance jobs on the continent.

[CorradoB]

Mr Tidy said:

Welcome Corrado!

As much as a BMW Z4 Coupe may fit some of your criteria they will never get close to your 1100/1200kg weight preference! More like 1400 or 1500kg sadly.

I bought my 1st 3.0Si Coupe in 2014 and my 2nd in 2016 but inevitably ended up buying an M Coupe last December!

Based on my experience I'd say a 3.0Si was 80% of the experience for 50% of the money, but that extra 20% is just amazing - albeit at an "M" price premium!

It depends what you want, and what you are prepared to pay - but there are always other options as you have mentioned.

Just buy what you really want and enjoy it!

But the M does have an LSD and hydraulic PAS!

Hi Mr Tidy and thanks for the welcome! Congrats for your dedication and loyalty to the E86 cause .

Your Z4MC is truly gorgeous (Silbergrau with CSL wheels if I am not mistaken?) and thanks for sharing the pic! Mine was Monaco Blau with dark brown interior, owned it from jan 2010 until sep 2012, bought it nearly new (<10k miles) and sold it with 25k miles. I am still dreaming about that engine...
I think I am simply in love with the E86 fastback shape, and it's still a lot of value for money (especially the 3.0 si which - at least in Italy - can be a real bargain).

I am doing my best to ignore the temptation to buy one again, as there are so many cars I like that I still haven't experienced properly.
Regarding weight you are right: when I drive an E86 right after having driven the V8V, the little Z feels like an MX5 by comparison . However last weekend I drove an E86 after a blast in the Delta, and you clearly feel the difference the other way round.

You are completely right about buying what one really wants, the difficult thing for me has always been choosing between many options that I would equally enjoy .

thanks!
Ciao
Corrado

[CorradoB]

sherman said:

How about a 90's toyota supra? If you can find an unmolested one

Loved it when I was a child, and also rarer than anything from Maranello or Sant'Agata around here. Still like the looks but I would prefer something lighter and NA.
thanks for the suggestion btw!!

Corrado

[CorradoB]

GravelBen said:

Not when light weight is one of the main criteria! Hard to think of anything 6-cyl that comes anywhere close to sub-1200kg.

BRZ/GT86 might be an option if ~1250kg is light enough, still 4-cyl though.

NC or ND MX5?

How heavy is a Boxster?

Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 28th July 03:07

Hi GravelBen, that's indeed the sad but true point: lightweight and 6cyl do not go hand-in-hand easily. This is the reason why I could also consider something slightly heaver (1300ish?) as long as it drives well and with agility in the winding roads of our dreams. Drove a 987.2 Cayman S on a racetrack (Porsche dealer promo event) and liked it a lot, but no idea how it feels like on real roads (i.e. if it feels too heavy, filtered, LARGE etc.).

NC/ND MX5 is one of the "obvious" candidates, seriously taken into consideration.

To reply to Mr Tidy as well, let's say 6cyl is an emotional temptation I can hardly resist to, while relatively lightweight and compact is a must: I have owned too many cars that - in spite of pure grunt - were too heavy or wide for our roads.

thanks!
ciao
Corrado

[CorradoB]

psymonr said:

Not as 'small' as you could go (i.e. it's a little shorter than an S2000, but unfortunately a bit wider too), but what about a TVR Chimera? Light, Rover V8, already done it's depreciating, I believe they come with LSDs too, might be worth a look

Also, any chance of a post about all of your cars? I'd love to hear/see more about your 1960-70 road legal GTs! As well as your Delta and the XJR!

Thanks a lot psymonr and also thanks to 2gins on the same point. Well well well, to be honest I have always been fascinated by TVRs and had a significant crush for the T350 when it came out. The sound of that straight six (Tuscan, Cerbera Speed Six, Tamora, T350...) is thrilling and exciting.

Unfortunately is almost impossible to find one in Southern Europe, and even harder to find a LHD one (which would be my preference, given my scarce proficiency - to say the least - with steering wheels on the "right" side of the dash). Availability of reliable and knowledgeable specialists is another tricky point down here. So in a nutshell: would I like it? Most probably YES (a big one). Is is a likely outcome in a short-medium term research? Not so much.

Thanks also for the interest about my garage! I promise I will post some pics and anecdotes very soon

Cheers,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

s m said:

BMW Z3 2.8 Coupe or the Z3M Coupe

Bit heavier than your ideal but the 2.8 is available on the Continent
LSD available - not too large
6-pots

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1244795

Edited by s m on Tuesday 28th July 07:29

Thanks s m, and this is even a LHD!
Honestly I am tempted by the Z3 Coupe as well as by the Z4 Coupe, only point is that down here they are aligned in terms of value and its easier to find a 3.0 si with <60k miles for much less than a Z3 Coupe 2.8 or 3.0 with 1,5x miles. Never driven the older one, know quite well the Z4. Anybody who has experienced both and could kindly share impressions on differences on the road? Especially regarding how fun, communicative, involving, agile do they feel.
Thanks!
cheers,
Corrado

[TheAlastair34]

S2 Elise

Depriciation proof, very cheap to run and nothing drives like a Lotus everthing else after will be terrible and they looks amazing

Export from the UK Jon Seal Sportcars does this a fair bit and has some cracking cars

[CorradoB]

Magnum 475 said:

Obvious answer is either Boxster S or Cayman S.

Not quite sub 1200kg, but excellent handling and a great sounding 6. Just avoid the 987.1 3.4 engine due to the high borkage risk!!

You got it
the Cayman S is the potential shortlist, shadowed by the engine issue. In terms of reliability, performance, and styling (personal preference) a 981 S with manual gearbox could probably anything I would even need, especially if it feels agile and not too heavy/large. However availability in continental Europe is relatively low and prices unreasonably high. It is hard to find a nice manual 981s for less than 50k€, when at the same time for 60k€ you can find several 996.1 GT3s (which makes me completely forget about the 981...).
987.2 never dropped too much and are quite rare as well: how does the DFI engine behave in the longer run? Haven't read too many horror stories about that one, or at least none that I can remember right now.
Thanks!
cheers,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

Bigus said:

Not in your stated category regarding age but qualifies on six cylinder and nearly on weight but over qualifies on safety and reliability..... 350 z

Hi Bigus and thanks,
well in terms of age we can fit it in (I am considering anything 1995-onwards). Drove one in 2006 in Bedford (Palmer) and enjoyed it, although I found it a bit heavy compared to other cars I had/drove (back then I had a S2000, then replaced by a 993 C2, then Z4M). Gorgeous sound, right size, reasonable prices. All-in-all, hard to ignore.
cheers,
Corrado