997 v M3 v ? (4 seat manual sports/performance car £25-30k)

[DBA086]

Hi team

After some suggestions as I’m relatively new to the UK market and scene having moved over from Australia. I am looking to replace my 99 M Coupe with a 4 seater (which must accommodate a 3 year old) which is also ULEZ compliant as I’m in London.

I would like something that is relatively quick, engaging to drive and isn’t about to grenade itself. It would be a plus if it can fit roof racks for bikes (although that’s not strictly necessary). I only drive 2-3,000 miles a year so am not too worried about the mileage on the car, and it is unlikely to see any track time. I don’t want an auto/DCT car.

My budget is £25-30k, and I have a shortlist of a 997.1 Carrera S; 997.2 Carrera or E46 M3 CS. Is there anything else worth considering?

If it helps I have previously owned a number of M3s: an e46 M3 (SMG) which was not as fun as I hoped on account of the gearbox; and I really enjoyed my e92 M3 (in both manual and DCT variants). I also liked my B5 and B7 RS4s, but I don’t really want another estate as we already have a fast tourer as a family car (M5).

Edit: I have also owned a 1M and M2 which I loved; but I think both are out of reach at the moment as I would want an M2 competition.

Edited by DBA086 on Wednesday 2nd September 11:53

[stevekoz]

Alternate suggestion for you -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007091...

Reliable, fun to drive, nice amount of power, German (as it seems you like them) and certainly not going to grenade itself.

Likewise you could afford a c63 -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008021...

Both fit roof racks. Have decent rear room. It would certainly be a contender for my money in that kind of bracket.

Another option, though not german would be the R35 GTR. Not quite as common at this price mark, but If you look around you will find them just with more reasonable mid mileage -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202006109...

Awesome power delivery, big on space. Certainly has to be a contender.

Another japanese offering - the lexus RCF - its all about the engine and the noise in this thing. Not as good to drive as some of your options but different, rare, stunning to look at and the sound to match. And yes, you can fit bikes to a rack between the rear roof line and boot -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007251...

Now moving to a more british fair, your budget can get you a good v8 vantage.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009013...

Not as much interior room but certainly fits a rack and is lovely to look at and drive.

Lastly, something a little more exotic - from Italy

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008092...

Lovely looking, sounding, driving car and you can fit a small rack to the rear boot hatch and enough to carry a bike.

A few different options to ponder perhaps.

Good luck with your search.

[DBA086]

Thanks. Agree that swapping auto opens up more choices, but I just don’t really enjoy them as much as I should. I hadn’t considered a GTR - do they come with a manual?

[nickfrog]

DBA086 said:

Edit: I have also owned a 1M and M2 which I loved; but I think both are out of reach at the moment as I would want an M2 competition.

I was going to say M2 before seeing your Edit.

It might seem like a sideways move if you got another original M2 but the Comp doesn't move the game on that much and a second hand M2 should be findable at £30k although there are currently no approved manual cars available.

[tejr]

I really struggled with the same predicament ..

Its hard to find a 2+2 with a manual gearbox (I added in the caveat of wanting a V8 too).

In the end, the only realistic options were - Ford Mustang , E92 M3 , another TVR Cerbera .. I considered sacrificing the V8 for a 997... all have their flaws tbh. I even considered a 200SX/300ZX, but most have melted away or been bastardised into 'drift' cars..

[stevekoz]

DBA086 said:

Thanks. Agree that swapping auto opens up more choices, but I just don’t really enjoy them as much as I should. I hadn’t considered a GTR - do they come with a manual?

Think the difficulty for you is that in that bracket, newer cars are majority some sort of dual clutch / auto type car.

As you said you enjoyed the dct in the e92 v8 M3 - i thought that you'd be willing to compromise in that area. The gearboxes in these cars have come along way since the SMG in the e46 which you already know. I don't think it would kill the enjoyment of the cars i listed. But yes they are compromises.

It's tougher to find a manual.

You could opt for something like the Lotus Evora -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008052...

Not quite sure how they stack up with a rack (the others i listed i know they all can take one).

But its a great car 2+2, manual and its a Lotus, so its on point to drive.

There is the mustang -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008172...

but i just don't think its as "special" perhaps as the cars you've listed as your go-to options. I tried to keep it inline with a 911 or better and to be honest, a mustang just isn't. Don't get me wrong, i love them, but its not in the same league if you ask me. Just my opinion though and i'm sure others will disagree.

Likewise you could get an TTS in manual -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008182...

But again, for me, i don't think it is comparable to the likes of the 911.

You could go for something like the Manual M4 -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008313...

[rfn]

I did this recently (after over 6 months of debating).
I went for a 997 C2S manual. I love it - it's perfect. Would recommend!

[ZX10R NIN]

What about a Manual Competition M4?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008262...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202006240...

[ftaffy]

Currently doing just this but I am returning it to Aus with me in a year or so.

My short list had:
997.1 - M97 engine, Read up on the bore scoring / IMS and then get it borescoped during PPI. Can get some cheap cars even below your budget but I would really consider a few mods like DSC for PASM and refresh suspension to get a great ride.
997.2 will stretch a 30k budget for a manual, unless you are happy with getting a CAT car with some miles. A .2 is a big step change to a .1 and much rarer.
996 turbo has a few in budget at the moment, engines a just about unbreakable but the coolant hoses are not... so read up on weak points. A 996 is an easy car to work on if you keep away from a convertible, then it’s a nightmare as 1 error means 101 things. Higher mileage again, a low mileage manual is high $.
Lotus Evora is a common suggestion for a 2+2, and will fit your budget. Much better value in UK then Aus like most cars but if want to scratch a british itch.
As noted already a granturismo is in budget and what a noise!
DB9 was on the list and then I looked one over and it didn’t do it for me.

Good luck and enjoy the car.

[DBA086]

stevekoz said:

Think the difficulty for you is that in that bracket, newer cars are majority some sort of dual clutch / auto type car.

As you said you enjoyed the dct in the e92 v8 M3 - i thought that you'd be willing to compromise in that area. The gearboxes in these cars have come along way since the SMG in the e46 which you already know. I don't think it would kill the enjoyment of the cars i listed. But yes they are compromises.

It's tougher to find a manual.

You could opt for something like the Lotus Evora -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008052...

Not quite sure how they stack up with a rack (the others i listed i know they all can take one).

But its a great car 2+2, manual and its a Lotus, so its on point to drive.

There is the mustang -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008172...

but i just don't think its as "special" perhaps as the cars you've listed as your go-to options. I tried to keep it inline with a 911 or better and to be honest, a mustang just isn't. Don't get me wrong, i love them, but its not in the same league if you ask me. Just my opinion though and i'm sure others will disagree.

Likewise you could get an TTS in manual -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008182...

But again, for me, i don't think it is comparable to the likes of the 911.

You could go for something like the Manual M4 -

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008313...

Yes. I must admit that the M3 DCT was by force rather than by choice (as the better half needed to drive it and I was lucky enough to run a 1 Series M in parallel to satisfy the need for a third pedal). I found the DCT great when pressing on, but otherwise it was not as an involving as the manual. We now have an M5 to satisfy that itch (and haul everything); hence the preference for a manual.

Having done research on R35 GTRs it sounds like the gearbox might be bearable (if not necessitated by the power), but I guess it’s a departure from what I’ve run in the past. There is one around the corner so I may ask the owner if he can show me around.

I hadn’t considered a TTRS, however that I must say like the quality and all round package, particularly the engine note. They also seem to be cheap enough that it could be run alongside the M Coupe. Unfortunately, I don’t think a TTS will do it for me

I will also have a look at M4’s although I am wary of their reputation (having scared myself silly with an overly snappy M3 before I left). The M2 seemed to be a good compromise (on paper at least) but having run a 1M for a while it just wasn’t as special. Hence an M2 competition.

[DBA086]

ftaffy said:

Currently doing just this but I am returning it to Aus with me in a year or so.

My short list had:
997.1 - M97 engine, Read up on the bore scoring / IMS and then get it borescoped during PPI. Can get some cheap cars even below your budget but I would really consider a few mods like DSC for PASM and refresh suspension to get a great ride.
997.2 will stretch a 30k budget for a manual, unless you are happy with getting a CAT car with some miles. A .2 is a big step change to a .1 and much rarer.
996 turbo has a few in budget at the moment, engines a just about unbreakable but the coolant hoses are not... so read up on weak points. A 996 is an easy car to work on if you keep away from a convertible, then it’s a nightmare as 1 error means 101 things. Higher mileage again, a low mileage manual is high $.
Lotus Evora is a common suggestion for a 2+2, and will fit your budget. Much better value in UK then Aus like most cars but if want to scratch a british itch.
As noted already a granturismo is in budget and what a noise!
DB9 was on the list and then I looked one over and it didn’t do it for me.

Good luck and enjoy the car.

I would also look to import the cars back to Australia in the future.

That affirms my views on the Porsche’s, although I had discounted 996 turbos as they’re not ULEZ compliant.

What did you end up choosing?

[jimmsy]

I've recently been in this position and went for a Mustang Manual. It's a characterful car, might not be as quick as the others, won't win any races, but as a daily (pandemic allowing) to put a gigantic smile on your face at the weekend, and get you comfortably and easily to work during the week it's spot on. Maybe worth a look?

EDIT: Also carry bikes on it using the suction cup system that works great.

[ftaffy]

DBA086 said:

I would also look to import the cars back to Australia in the future.

That affirms my views on the Porsche’s, although I had discounted 996 turbos as they’re not ULEZ compliant.

What did you end up choosing?

I am stuck at the moment between a 996tt and a 997.2 under £35k, closer to £30k the better. For a £30k purchase price car your up for about $18k import.
A .2 manual is a aud$125k plus car, while a turbo manual is 100k. So a .2 is my leading choice. But I need to find a car I like, with mileage I can live with for the £. While I don't plan on selling I am not going to throw money away.

A compliance engineer in aus told me stay away from db9/4 seat astons as you will need to weld in mounts in the rear of the car for child seats.