Main dealer Sales manager resisting car rejection.
Discussion
Apologies is this topic has been discussed several times before.
Four weeks ago I purchased a 3 year old, 5,000 mile R8 from a main dealer. As I have done so many times before I collected the car without previously having test driven it as the dealer is 2 hours away.
On the way home I noticed a strange floating/handling issue with the car under load or when down changing, particularly in sport mode. The rear of the car would become unsettled quite noticeably at legal speeds, I wouldn't want to try it at much higher speeds which obviously the car is capable of.
I collected on a Saturday and notified the dealer of this on the Monday morning and we agreed the best course of action would to have my local dealer carry out a geometry set up to factory settings. The car was not far out but upon collection the technician said he noticed the strange handing and stated he had not seen an R8 behave like that before. While it was on the ramp he gave it an inspection and found nothing out of the ordinary.
I emailed the sales manager of supplying dealership stating there was a handling issue with the car that was present when I collected the car and he was immediately very dismissive that there would be fault. I told him my local dealer have driven the car and carried out a brief inspection and no obvious fault was present but they did confirm the car was not handling correctly under certain driving conditions.
Last week I made the journey to the supplying dealer so the sales manager and his Master Tech could drive it. Upon return from their test drive they both got out of the car and crouched down around the rear wheels for a while as if to be looking for something, they then came back into the dealership and claimed everything seemed fine. I left it with them and they called the following day to say no fault had been found, they then delivered the car back to me the following day.
During our phone conversation I mentioned rejecting the car as there is clearly an underlying problem and again the sales manager dismissed this as they could not find a fault. His take on the matter is that unless we can find something obviously wrong then there is no issue. I explained that just because they could not find an obvious fault does not mean there is not one and that the car was unfit for purpose. I also explained I have owned in excess of 25 mid and rear engined cars, I have owned a car tuning company for the last 20 years and I know how the car should drive having had 2 previous R8s and more recently a Huracan.
So today I took the car back to my local dealer for their workshop manager to drive, he is also a Master Tech and their Audi Sport specialist. He noticed the issues immediately and emailed me after his test drive to confirm that none of the many R8s he have driven have behaved in this way and that there is clearly an underlying issue with the car. I sent a copy of this email to the sales manager stating I wanted to reject the car as there was an underlying issue, it was of unsatisfactory quality and is not fit for purpose. The response: The email below is not confirmation of an issue, no fault has yet been diagnosed. I am happy for your local dealer to conduct a full workshop inspection of your car.
Now the supplying dealer has already done this and not found anything and two technicians from an independent main dealer have confirmed an underlying issue.
Am I wrong to think I have done enough to legally reject the car?
Four weeks ago I purchased a 3 year old, 5,000 mile R8 from a main dealer. As I have done so many times before I collected the car without previously having test driven it as the dealer is 2 hours away.
On the way home I noticed a strange floating/handling issue with the car under load or when down changing, particularly in sport mode. The rear of the car would become unsettled quite noticeably at legal speeds, I wouldn't want to try it at much higher speeds which obviously the car is capable of.
I collected on a Saturday and notified the dealer of this on the Monday morning and we agreed the best course of action would to have my local dealer carry out a geometry set up to factory settings. The car was not far out but upon collection the technician said he noticed the strange handing and stated he had not seen an R8 behave like that before. While it was on the ramp he gave it an inspection and found nothing out of the ordinary.
I emailed the sales manager of supplying dealership stating there was a handling issue with the car that was present when I collected the car and he was immediately very dismissive that there would be fault. I told him my local dealer have driven the car and carried out a brief inspection and no obvious fault was present but they did confirm the car was not handling correctly under certain driving conditions.
Last week I made the journey to the supplying dealer so the sales manager and his Master Tech could drive it. Upon return from their test drive they both got out of the car and crouched down around the rear wheels for a while as if to be looking for something, they then came back into the dealership and claimed everything seemed fine. I left it with them and they called the following day to say no fault had been found, they then delivered the car back to me the following day.
During our phone conversation I mentioned rejecting the car as there is clearly an underlying problem and again the sales manager dismissed this as they could not find a fault. His take on the matter is that unless we can find something obviously wrong then there is no issue. I explained that just because they could not find an obvious fault does not mean there is not one and that the car was unfit for purpose. I also explained I have owned in excess of 25 mid and rear engined cars, I have owned a car tuning company for the last 20 years and I know how the car should drive having had 2 previous R8s and more recently a Huracan.
So today I took the car back to my local dealer for their workshop manager to drive, he is also a Master Tech and their Audi Sport specialist. He noticed the issues immediately and emailed me after his test drive to confirm that none of the many R8s he have driven have behaved in this way and that there is clearly an underlying issue with the car. I sent a copy of this email to the sales manager stating I wanted to reject the car as there was an underlying issue, it was of unsatisfactory quality and is not fit for purpose. The response: The email below is not confirmation of an issue, no fault has yet been diagnosed. I am happy for your local dealer to conduct a full workshop inspection of your car.
Now the supplying dealer has already done this and not found anything and two technicians from an independent main dealer have confirmed an underlying issue.
Am I wrong to think I have done enough to legally reject the car?
no it's your choice if you want to reject the car not the dealership. However if they do not agree it'll just take a bit of a fight. I think your mind's made up and if you keep the car it will never feel right to you so you should use all powers available to reject it. Can that not be done as part of the approved used programme if it was bought through that plus get the finance co involved as they too are liable if it's on finance.
to reject the car you have to find something wrong. Opinions from Master techs don't cut the mustard. Get the MT to find out exactly what is wrong and then you can decide what to do. However if you find out what is wrong, then fix it and the car will be as you want it? I suspect the supplying dealer will probably cough for an thorough inspection and maybe the repair as it would be under warranty anyway. Don't be an ass and threaten legal actions or state you want to had the car back.
There are other options to consider, but first start with finding the fault. Especially as you claim to be involved in tuning and owning lots of sports cars. Use your nouse and provide a detailed feedback as to what the problems are.
There are other options to consider, but first start with finding the fault. Especially as you claim to be involved in tuning and owning lots of sports cars. Use your nouse and provide a detailed feedback as to what the problems are.
I can't advise anything legally, but your dealer does seem to have told you to get it in for a proper check over to find the fault so I guess the ball is with you.
With regards to wierd handling, when I first bought my XKR about 3 years ago, it had a very strange squirminess feeling in the back end, most noticeable when giving it a few beans on motorway ramps, or whenever road cambers were changing. It was most unsettling, felt like the back end wasn't attached, properly scared me the first few times it kicked in.
Stuck with it for a few months then changed out the rear tyres which were 295's rather than the 285's it should have had. Nght and day effect, car's been prefect ever since.
Worth checking the tyres are 'right'? Try it with a borrowed set from the local dealer maybe?
With regards to wierd handling, when I first bought my XKR about 3 years ago, it had a very strange squirminess feeling in the back end, most noticeable when giving it a few beans on motorway ramps, or whenever road cambers were changing. It was most unsettling, felt like the back end wasn't attached, properly scared me the first few times it kicked in.
Stuck with it for a few months then changed out the rear tyres which were 295's rather than the 285's it should have had. Nght and day effect, car's been prefect ever since.
Worth checking the tyres are 'right'? Try it with a borrowed set from the local dealer maybe?
The legislation will depend upon whether this was a distance sale - how did you pay for the car? In full off premises or when you arrived to collect. The latter weakens the argument somewhat if true.
If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
Piersman2 said:
I can't advise anything legally, but your dealer does seem to have told you to get it in for a proper check over to find the fault so I guess the ball is with you.
With regards to wierd handling, when I first bought my XKR about 3 years ago, it had a very strange squirminess feeling in the back end, most noticeable when giving it a few beans on motorway ramps, or whenever road cambers were changing. It was most unsettling, felt like the back end wasn't attached, properly scared me the first few times it kicked in.
Stuck with it for a few months then changed out the rear tyres which were 295's rather than the 285's it should have had. Nght and day effect, car's been prefect ever since.
Worth checking the tyres are 'right'? Try it with a borrowed set from the local dealer maybe?
This With regards to wierd handling, when I first bought my XKR about 3 years ago, it had a very strange squirminess feeling in the back end, most noticeable when giving it a few beans on motorway ramps, or whenever road cambers were changing. It was most unsettling, felt like the back end wasn't attached, properly scared me the first few times it kicked in.
Stuck with it for a few months then changed out the rear tyres which were 295's rather than the 285's it should have had. Nght and day effect, car's been prefect ever since.
Worth checking the tyres are 'right'? Try it with a borrowed set from the local dealer maybe?
The supplying dealer have inspected the car and found nothing untoward, the tyres are almost new, correct R8 fitment at the correct pressures. Geo is factory spec.
Two technicians from another main dealer have confirmed the car is not right. It could be gearbox related, suspension programming etc, neither of which would not be immediately noticeable upon inspection. There is clearly something wrong somewhere that would not show up as part of a normal inspection.
Two technicians from another main dealer have confirmed the car is not right. It could be gearbox related, suspension programming etc, neither of which would not be immediately noticeable upon inspection. There is clearly something wrong somewhere that would not show up as part of a normal inspection.
CS Garth said:
The legislation will depend upon whether this was a distance sale - how did you pay for the car? In full off premises or when you arrived to collect. The latter weakens the argument somewhat if true.
If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
OP collected the car so not distance sale If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
Nickp82 said:
CS Garth said:
The legislation will depend upon whether this was a distance sale - how did you pay for the car? In full off premises or when you arrived to collect. The latter weakens the argument somewhat if true.
If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
OP collected the car so not distance sale If it is a distance sale then you had 14 days to return it - this is why some dealers run the clock down and don’t make you aware of your rights.
Regardless- good luck
OP, ultimately with no fault found, you can’t reject IMO (well they can just say no) there must be an underlying reason for the handling and someone needs to find that issue.
Limpet said:
I agree with the above. The cause needs to be identified.
This is a physical, mechanical issue. It shouldn't be too hard to get to the bottom of. Geometry, a worn component such as a bush or a damper, or a tyre defect. It can't be much else.
Yes, surely only a limited number of components could be causing the issues and if the car is under warranty the fault can be rectified. Maybe the car sat around for ages during lockdown and has 'flat spots' on the tyres.This is a physical, mechanical issue. It shouldn't be too hard to get to the bottom of. Geometry, a worn component such as a bush or a damper, or a tyre defect. It can't be much else.
After a suspension repair, or some new tyres, it could be just the car the OP was hoping for.
Edited by Ron99 on Monday 7th September 20:10
First thing to do is to change the wheels and tyres for a borrowed set from another car that are known good. Wheels and tyres have a scarcely believable leverage on how a car drives.
If that’s no good then take the car to a motorsport suspension expert or, if you have some time and a ramp break the string lines out and measure it up. I like to remove the road springs and shock absorbers (I presume the R8 isn’t a strut ;-)) and then with the car on the ramp you can articulate the wheels through their suspension movement and plot out exactly what reaction to a bump this vehicle is having.
If the car has some type of hooky rear wheel steer that’s not mechanical then get them/someone good to look at those modules and see if they are behaving.
Best of luck sorting it out - be methodical and logical and I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom of it - is it otherwise a nice thing?
Edited to add if it’s not rotating things floatyness at the back is most likely to end up being toe out somewhere on the rear wheels.
If that’s no good then take the car to a motorsport suspension expert or, if you have some time and a ramp break the string lines out and measure it up. I like to remove the road springs and shock absorbers (I presume the R8 isn’t a strut ;-)) and then with the car on the ramp you can articulate the wheels through their suspension movement and plot out exactly what reaction to a bump this vehicle is having.
If the car has some type of hooky rear wheel steer that’s not mechanical then get them/someone good to look at those modules and see if they are behaving.
Best of luck sorting it out - be methodical and logical and I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom of it - is it otherwise a nice thing?
Edited to add if it’s not rotating things floatyness at the back is most likely to end up being toe out somewhere on the rear wheels.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Monday 7th September 20:29
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