which Tuner Car?
Discussion
Hi all,
so after a few discussions on here, I bought myself a little Focus ST (Mk2)
Now, i've never really been a "modder"....despite my first car being a fridge white XR3i
But tinkering with the little ST has been great fun, I'm intending to take it to around 300bhp, which is a pretty easy goal.
Now, this has got me thinking....WHAT NEXT?!?
this is a rhetorical thread, i've no plans to swap just yet, but I wonder what else is out there that's fun to tune/tinker/mod with.
I mean my repairs are crazy cheap in comparrison to what I had with my old A5, never seems to be an issue - need new stuff, no problem, need them fitted? no problem. So it's a really fun little hobby, I don't drive often, but my monthly 2 hour trip to the office is much more fun now!
So, back to topic....where should I go next?
am I looking at Audi RS4/RS6 territory?
M3?
Vauxhall VXR?
See the audi option never really struck me as a tuner car, more of a fast out of the box type of thing, and I think repairs would be nuts on the bank balance.
What about Impreza? Evo? Supra?
I mean for me, there's not alot I dislike about my little focus, it's 5dr so really practical, it's not really showing it's 15 years and it's great fun to drive.
anyway, where would you go next? I think if I get to my 300bhp target, the next car would need to be circa 400bhp with real potential of taking it anywhere.
so after a few discussions on here, I bought myself a little Focus ST (Mk2)
Now, i've never really been a "modder"....despite my first car being a fridge white XR3i
But tinkering with the little ST has been great fun, I'm intending to take it to around 300bhp, which is a pretty easy goal.
Now, this has got me thinking....WHAT NEXT?!?
this is a rhetorical thread, i've no plans to swap just yet, but I wonder what else is out there that's fun to tune/tinker/mod with.
I mean my repairs are crazy cheap in comparrison to what I had with my old A5, never seems to be an issue - need new stuff, no problem, need them fitted? no problem. So it's a really fun little hobby, I don't drive often, but my monthly 2 hour trip to the office is much more fun now!
So, back to topic....where should I go next?
am I looking at Audi RS4/RS6 territory?
M3?
Vauxhall VXR?
See the audi option never really struck me as a tuner car, more of a fast out of the box type of thing, and I think repairs would be nuts on the bank balance.
What about Impreza? Evo? Supra?
I mean for me, there's not alot I dislike about my little focus, it's 5dr so really practical, it's not really showing it's 15 years and it's great fun to drive.
anyway, where would you go next? I think if I get to my 300bhp target, the next car would need to be circa 400bhp with real potential of taking it anywhere.
I think the ideal tuner car has a few things
1) Engine capable of making a good amount more power - so generally a turbo, or sometimes a huge nat-asp engine in a low state of tune. Nothing better than cheaply turning up the boost a moderate amount and earning more power, torque, response and fuel economy all for a few hundred quid.
2) Rest of the drivetrain capable of withstanding the power - you don't want to be breaking gearboxes on a monthly basis, needing both feet to depress the clutch or being afraid to launch hard to preserve the diff(s)
3) Chassis capable of making good use of power - this is personal, some people are happy to end up with a muscle car that's a rocket sled in a straight line, but if the increased power plays into a car that's satisfying in the corners as well as between them, to me that's a much bigger return on investment than just improving the traffic light grand prix. Typically this is FR, MR or 4WD as power increases, for traction reasons - no point buying power if you're just going to turn your tyres into smoke more quickly.
4) A following. It's much much easier to simply follow a well-trodden path, fit parts X, Y and Z and bingo, 400hp, than to be trying to discover the recipe for the first time and find all the weak points; doing an R&D job is very consuming of time and money.
I think each car has it's own 'sweet spot' for tuning, where you get the most benefits with the fewest downsides and the power is in balance with the rest of the car. The classic mistake is when you arrive at this sweet spot to be so impressed that you go back for more, and then take it too far and spoil it.
However, I think for some people the tuning is the whole point, the fun part; whereas for me it's just a matter of spotting an chance to make my car more fun to drive. I don't need to impress people with "Stage 5" tuning or four-digit dyno printouts, nor by doing anything original - just take up well-proven ways to make my cars more responsive and fun to drive.
To circle back, Focus ST seems to do well for 1, 2 and 4, and fairly well on 3 up to a point, so I'm not surprised it's putting a smile on your face.
I reckon the ideal tuner car is the Nissan GT-R (R35), which can make lots of extra power from the stock basic engine and drivetrain, has 4WD, and a huge tuning industry around it. If you want a sky's-the-limit car, that would be my thought, starting at £32k or so.
1) Engine capable of making a good amount more power - so generally a turbo, or sometimes a huge nat-asp engine in a low state of tune. Nothing better than cheaply turning up the boost a moderate amount and earning more power, torque, response and fuel economy all for a few hundred quid.
2) Rest of the drivetrain capable of withstanding the power - you don't want to be breaking gearboxes on a monthly basis, needing both feet to depress the clutch or being afraid to launch hard to preserve the diff(s)
3) Chassis capable of making good use of power - this is personal, some people are happy to end up with a muscle car that's a rocket sled in a straight line, but if the increased power plays into a car that's satisfying in the corners as well as between them, to me that's a much bigger return on investment than just improving the traffic light grand prix. Typically this is FR, MR or 4WD as power increases, for traction reasons - no point buying power if you're just going to turn your tyres into smoke more quickly.
4) A following. It's much much easier to simply follow a well-trodden path, fit parts X, Y and Z and bingo, 400hp, than to be trying to discover the recipe for the first time and find all the weak points; doing an R&D job is very consuming of time and money.
I think each car has it's own 'sweet spot' for tuning, where you get the most benefits with the fewest downsides and the power is in balance with the rest of the car. The classic mistake is when you arrive at this sweet spot to be so impressed that you go back for more, and then take it too far and spoil it.
However, I think for some people the tuning is the whole point, the fun part; whereas for me it's just a matter of spotting an chance to make my car more fun to drive. I don't need to impress people with "Stage 5" tuning or four-digit dyno printouts, nor by doing anything original - just take up well-proven ways to make my cars more responsive and fun to drive.
To circle back, Focus ST seems to do well for 1, 2 and 4, and fairly well on 3 up to a point, so I'm not surprised it's putting a smile on your face.
Hudson1984 said:
What about Impreza? Evo? Supra?
Imprezas I don't think are as robust as other Japanese engines, and along with the Evo are limited by being 2.0 four pots - you can get huge power, but at the cost of lag. Probably a case where the first ~100hp increase is great, but better not to go too far unless you're truly dedicated. Supra has huge power potential, but probably well beyond what's worth trying to put down by the two tyres at the unweighted end of the car. Great if you want to chase numbers and enjoy the engineering of big power, as long as you're happy to only use it for 'roll on' drag races ;-)Hudson1984 said:
am I looking at Audi RS4/RS6 territory?
The Audi RS6 is a great example, as being turbo it does well on 1, seems to handle quite big increases ok, 4WD so no traction problems, and a relatively widespread tuning industry. However as you're playing at quite a high level, big numbers are involved, not only in power outputs but also costs. RS4 only good if a turbo version I think.Hudson1984 said:
M3?
Earlier models are naturally aspirated so won't see big gains; current model has good modding potential, but it's already towards the top of what's probably useable in the chassis (road tests talk about traction being an issue as stock).Hudson1984 said:
Vauxhall VXR?
Not sure which one. The VX220-based turbo would be a good bet, won't make vast power but will be insanely quick in what's basically an Elise chassis, and should handle too. The big Holden-based ones are a decent bet with the Chevy V8, at least until you start to reach the limits of traction. The Insignias are FF based platform, not sure what the limits of cooling and the drivetrain are.I reckon the ideal tuner car is the Nissan GT-R (R35), which can make lots of extra power from the stock basic engine and drivetrain, has 4WD, and a huge tuning industry around it. If you want a sky's-the-limit car, that would be my thought, starting at £32k or so.
Every car is a tuner car it just depends on how much you want to spend as an example I had a supercharged RS4 but it wasn't cheap (I bought it half done) so you need to decide what you want from your base car.
Something like a VXR8/Monaro/C6 Corvette are great starting points:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corvette-C6-6-0L-LS2-Au...
Something like a VXR8/Monaro/C6 Corvette are great starting points:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corvette-C6-6-0L-LS2-Au...
yeah see that's the thing..
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009163...
GTR, 478bhp, 10 years old, low mileage. A beast certainly but, £35,000!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009193...
save £14,000 and you get a rather nice 6.3ltr V8!
at £35,000 though I don't think I could buy a GTR over a same year Aston DB9, you just get cool points
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007050...
save £5k and get a nice mustang
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008062...
but the chance of me ever being able to warrant £30k for a car is very slim, even if I used it everyday, I'd rather chuck that off the mortgage or do an extension or something ANYTHING else.
I think the most i'd ever likely spend for a car would be about £15,000, above this and I just wouldn't justify the money.
So at £15,000 my options are likely something like:
High Mileage RS6
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008262...
M5
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010054...
I mean sure there's others on that list for £15k but then, are there any real gains in doing that? £15,000 out of pocket and the car isn't spectacular, they're both cool, but would cost a fortune to maintain - the little ST costs bog all, even if I had to replace the whole engine, went fully forged and went nuts on the thing, it's still not getting close to the £15,000!
It's hard to see something to move into that ticks more boxes really. It's a great little car, I love the fact garage bills are small, and the sky is the limit with power to an extent. I mean yeah I do miss the Quattro of the A5, but I prefer the ST as a car, it's a more exciting drive and more exciting power delivery.
for me - it seems my little ST is perfect.. it makes me feel 19 again with my little XR3i, and that thing in reality was pants! 105bhp and fell to bits but I loved it.
I think once I get to 300bhp, it seems the logical thing would be to hold on and just keep going with my little focus, I just can't see anything that would be worth jumping into. Especially with how I use it, I mean it's not a track car, it's a fun road car, would I notice the difference? or more to the point, would I use the difference? 300bhp in a little focus is still damned quick...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009163...
GTR, 478bhp, 10 years old, low mileage. A beast certainly but, £35,000!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009193...
save £14,000 and you get a rather nice 6.3ltr V8!
at £35,000 though I don't think I could buy a GTR over a same year Aston DB9, you just get cool points
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007050...
save £5k and get a nice mustang
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008062...
but the chance of me ever being able to warrant £30k for a car is very slim, even if I used it everyday, I'd rather chuck that off the mortgage or do an extension or something ANYTHING else.
I think the most i'd ever likely spend for a car would be about £15,000, above this and I just wouldn't justify the money.
So at £15,000 my options are likely something like:
High Mileage RS6
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008262...
M5
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010054...
I mean sure there's others on that list for £15k but then, are there any real gains in doing that? £15,000 out of pocket and the car isn't spectacular, they're both cool, but would cost a fortune to maintain - the little ST costs bog all, even if I had to replace the whole engine, went fully forged and went nuts on the thing, it's still not getting close to the £15,000!
It's hard to see something to move into that ticks more boxes really. It's a great little car, I love the fact garage bills are small, and the sky is the limit with power to an extent. I mean yeah I do miss the Quattro of the A5, but I prefer the ST as a car, it's a more exciting drive and more exciting power delivery.
for me - it seems my little ST is perfect.. it makes me feel 19 again with my little XR3i, and that thing in reality was pants! 105bhp and fell to bits but I loved it.
I think once I get to 300bhp, it seems the logical thing would be to hold on and just keep going with my little focus, I just can't see anything that would be worth jumping into. Especially with how I use it, I mean it's not a track car, it's a fun road car, would I notice the difference? or more to the point, would I use the difference? 300bhp in a little focus is still damned quick...
crusty said:
BMW 335i with N54 engine
This would be my choice. Can be purchased pretty cheap and a remap with downpipes will see you over 400bhp. Fit a LSD and you'll have yourself a good looking, RWD, fun and dependable car that'll do 0-60 in less than 4.5s.If you want to take it further a single turbo conversion, with fuelling upgrades to support will take it to 500bhp+. The N54/N55 can take a lot of power without needing to be opened.
Hudson1984 said:
yeah see that's the thing..
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009163...
GTR, 478bhp, 10 years old, low mileage. A beast certainly but, £35,000!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009193...
save £14,000 and you get a rather nice 6.3ltr V8!
at £35,000 though I don't think I could buy a GTR over a same year Aston DB9, you just get cool points
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007050...
save £5k and get a nice mustang
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008062...
but the chance of me ever being able to warrant £30k for a car is very slim, even if I used it everyday, I'd rather chuck that off the mortgage or do an extension or something ANYTHING else.
I think the most i'd ever likely spend for a car would be about £15,000, above this and I just wouldn't justify the money.
So at £15,000 my options are likely something like:
High Mileage RS6
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008262...
M5
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010054...
I mean sure there's others on that list for £15k but then, are there any real gains in doing that? £15,000 out of pocket and the car isn't spectacular, they're both cool, but would cost a fortune to maintain - the little ST costs bog all, even if I had to replace the whole engine, went fully forged and went nuts on the thing, it's still not getting close to the £15,000!
It's hard to see something to move into that ticks more boxes really. It's a great little car, I love the fact garage bills are small, and the sky is the limit with power to an extent. I mean yeah I do miss the Quattro of the A5, but I prefer the ST as a car, it's a more exciting drive and more exciting power delivery.
for me - it seems my little ST is perfect.. it makes me feel 19 again with my little XR3i, and that thing in reality was pants! 105bhp and fell to bits but I loved it.
I think once I get to 300bhp, it seems the logical thing would be to hold on and just keep going with my little focus, I just can't see anything that would be worth jumping into. Especially with how I use it, I mean it's not a track car, it's a fun road car, would I notice the difference? or more to the point, would I use the difference? 300bhp in a little focus is still damned quick...
Both the RS6 & M5's are absolute brave pills at this price point, I really liked my my 2.5 ST that was a 330bhp car & was an absolute joy to drive but it doesn't compare to my CLK63. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009163...
GTR, 478bhp, 10 years old, low mileage. A beast certainly but, £35,000!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009193...
save £14,000 and you get a rather nice 6.3ltr V8!
at £35,000 though I don't think I could buy a GTR over a same year Aston DB9, you just get cool points
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202007050...
save £5k and get a nice mustang
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008062...
but the chance of me ever being able to warrant £30k for a car is very slim, even if I used it everyday, I'd rather chuck that off the mortgage or do an extension or something ANYTHING else.
I think the most i'd ever likely spend for a car would be about £15,000, above this and I just wouldn't justify the money.
So at £15,000 my options are likely something like:
High Mileage RS6
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008262...
M5
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010054...
I mean sure there's others on that list for £15k but then, are there any real gains in doing that? £15,000 out of pocket and the car isn't spectacular, they're both cool, but would cost a fortune to maintain - the little ST costs bog all, even if I had to replace the whole engine, went fully forged and went nuts on the thing, it's still not getting close to the £15,000!
It's hard to see something to move into that ticks more boxes really. It's a great little car, I love the fact garage bills are small, and the sky is the limit with power to an extent. I mean yeah I do miss the Quattro of the A5, but I prefer the ST as a car, it's a more exciting drive and more exciting power delivery.
for me - it seems my little ST is perfect.. it makes me feel 19 again with my little XR3i, and that thing in reality was pants! 105bhp and fell to bits but I loved it.
I think once I get to 300bhp, it seems the logical thing would be to hold on and just keep going with my little focus, I just can't see anything that would be worth jumping into. Especially with how I use it, I mean it's not a track car, it's a fun road car, would I notice the difference? or more to the point, would I use the difference? 300bhp in a little focus is still damned quick...
There are times when I'm going down a road when the ST may have been quicker but the 63 is much more of an overall occasion.
With a 15k budget there are some interesting options out there, the Monaro is a very good call at this price point some suspension work will make a proper difference & the tuning options are endless:
6.0 VXR with some money left over for some upgrades
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Monaro-6-0-V8-...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-Vauxhall-Monaro-6-...
Lexus ISF Like the Monaro above they get under your skin & are a cracking drive.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lexus-ISF-5-0-ACC-PCS-F...
A 335i is a good shout but will cost a bit
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009173...
scottyfocus said:
Block Mod, Rs turbo. Bilstein b12's.
There you go.
yeah it's pretty much the route i'm taking.There you go.
Powerflex bushes all going on today
replacing the noisy Ram air kit with an CAIS
then i'm intending to do RS clutch and Quaife LSD
probably then move onto block mod before swapping the intercooler and changing out the crap aftermarket exhaust with something better.
Then it'll be a remap and done, should see me safely to 300.
And i'll be staying there. I can't see myself moving into another car for a while. Just won't make enough of a difference unless I spend a chunk, and being as I only do a long drive once a month, it's not worth spending out for something posh.
That being said....once i've gotten to 300, I think i'll be hankering to see what 400-500 feels like....
TBH 300hp on the MK2 st isnt difficult, you can get 340 from a turbo back exhaust, cais, intercooler and map on the standard turbo, collins performance will do the lot for about £2500.
There are people with 600 ish hp on the MK2, so if you really want to tinker, then there is plenty of scope.
There are people with 600 ish hp on the MK2, so if you really want to tinker, then there is plenty of scope.
Smurfsarepeopletoo said:
TBH 300hp on the MK2 st isnt difficult, you can get 340 from a turbo back exhaust, cais, intercooler and map on the standard turbo, collins performance will do the lot for about £2500.
There are people with 600 ish hp on the MK2, so if you really want to tinker, then there is plenty of scope.
Oh for sure, go for a forged engine and internals and the skys the limit really. But then you're into serious cash, and perhaps that's the point to swap to something else, I mean the beemer starting at 300 makes for easier gains, or moving to the RS with it's starting point of 350, taking that to 400 is alot easier and with AWD makes it alot easier to get the power down, would hate to go mad on the ST when there's a better choice to make at that stage. There are people with 600 ish hp on the MK2, so if you really want to tinker, then there is plenty of scope.
I'm happy with the costs of taking it to 300, as the garage bills remain quite low with the work involved - even when I come to swap the subframe (dreaded rust!) I'm going to go fully galv on a replacement then it's a day to swap it out. Nothing seems to be a problem with a Ford but high end marques just seem to scream expensive bills, that takes the fun out of it I think.
So for me, I'll probably keep the ST at a reliable 300, then see how I feel and see what RS prices do, i'm sure when the newer one comes out they'll start to come down to a budget I'm happy with. I mean I'd rather go nuts tuning an RS than I would my ST.
There is no right or wrong answer....
Buy the car you like the look of, fit the engine you like, fit suspension to make it handle how you like, fit brakes to make it stop (or a parachute, depending on step 2).
Then buy a "daily", then get that mapped, maybe coilovers as you want it to sit a little lower, then a turbo kit to make it a bit quicker.... rinse, repeat...
Buy the car you like the look of, fit the engine you like, fit suspension to make it handle how you like, fit brakes to make it stop (or a parachute, depending on step 2).
Then buy a "daily", then get that mapped, maybe coilovers as you want it to sit a little lower, then a turbo kit to make it a bit quicker.... rinse, repeat...
unless you're wanting to spend time on track 300bhp is plenty, lets face it you're talking at most 6 seconds of throttle before you're exceeding all UK speed limits.
nothing corrupts like power!
I'l be looking at an M135i.
Breathing mods and a remap will see 400bhp and the rest of the package can take it, although you'd probably want a LSD.
nothing corrupts like power!
I'l be looking at an M135i.
Breathing mods and a remap will see 400bhp and the rest of the package can take it, although you'd probably want a LSD.
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