4 Seat MX5 Equivalent - Fun RWD Manual Car Sub £5k

[KTMsm]

I'd like to buy a fun 4 seat RWD car - effectively a 4 seat MX5 would be ideal, smaller and lighter the better, preferably with a LSD

If I raised the budget to £10k a GT86 would be perfect but this is very much a 3rd car for local use

The obvious answer would be an RX8 but most of it's use is the school run which is sub 3 miles so that rules it out

I was thinking IS200 but a good Sport seems to be £4k and TBH I'm struggling to pay that for what is a pretty average old car

I'd prefer Japanese but the prices are crazy

So is there anything better than a:
BMW 318Ti £3k
325Ti £3k

[Rotary Potato]

RX8 - taking the scenic route home every few days.

Other than the eye watering fuel costs, there'd be nothing 'wrong' with using an RX8 for that journey provided it got a semi-regular longer run with the opportunity to get fully up to temperature and fully exercise the engine. If you're worried about cold flooding, I find that isn't an issue beyond the first few hundred yards of running (i.e. shuffling cars on a driveway - recipe for disaster! ... driving more than half a mile - fine). Like any engine, lots of cold running will accelerate engine wear - but you'll get that with any car regularly used for short journeys.

Most stuff cheap and RWD has been hoovered up by the drift boys (I've done the same with more than 1 325), pushing prices to silly levels.

In terms of 'fun' (albeit a very different driving experience), the nearest you'd get to a 4 door MX5 would be a little hot hatch. Clio ... Fiesta ... Cooper S ... Civic Type R ... something like that.

Edited by Rotary Potato on Wednesday 28th July 12:14

[KTMsm]

I thought they had to be used for a decent distance... I know they average about 20 how horrific are they for short trips ?

I currently have a Swift Sport which TBH is the perfect car for the job but I miss RWD

My RX7 and MX5 barely get used

[Truckosaurus]

The urban legend about RX8 and short trips is, I believe, if you turn them off before they warm up there might be the risk of flooding them. A 3 mile trip should be plenty enough to clear its throat.

[Rotary Potato]

KTMsm said:

I thought they had to be used for a decent distance... I know they average about 20 how horrific are they for short trips ?

I currently have a Swift Sport which TBH is the perfect car for the job but I miss RWD

My RX7 and MX5 barely get used

OK ... a little more detail here.

Essentially there are 3 separate issues that are linked to short journeys.

1. Cold flooding. The RX8 is started by dumping a metric f-ton of fuel in while spinning the engine. Once started, it takes a period of time for that fuel to burn off. From experience, that time period depends on whether you leave the engine sat idling, or start driving the car immediately. If you drive the car, a few hundred yards is enough to get rid of the excess fuel. After that, this problem becomes a non-issue. It's most likely to occur when shuffling cars about on a driveway, or giving your neighbour a jump start, being moved onto an MOT ramp at a garage ... that sort of thing. I've not known of anyone who's ever driven further than the end of the road and flooded their car. It's a real pain to solve, as you either have to tow start the car, or come close to burning out the starter motor following the 'official' Mazda method.

2. Carbon deposits. These do build up in the engine when it is cold. They do get cleared out by a good trip or 2 to 9000rpm. In a perfect world, you'd warm the car up fully and give it a few decent pulls through the gears on each drive. In reality, this is rarely possible ... and provided a good run and rev is done on a semi-regular basis, I've never seen or heard of any significant carbon build up occuring. If you ONLY ever used the car for a 3 mile school run, and NEVER allowed it to fully warm up, followed by some spirited driving - then you could have issues. This was more of a problem when the car was new ... people expected to just use it as a car (Mazda underplayed the more demanding usage profile of a rotary). Now most are in the hands of enthusiasts, people are aware they need to good blat every now and again to clear them out.

3. Excessive engine wear Like all engines, cold engine oil provides less protection than warm ... and so a greater proportion of engine wear will occur here. As a rotary engine tends to need a rebuild a lot more often than a regular piston engine, you're more likely to encounter excessive engine wear. Also, the odds of you being left holding the baby when an engine needs a rebuild are a lot higher when the rebuild mileages are nearer to 60k than 300k. Mitigation here is to not go over about 4k revs until the car is fully warmed up. After lots of debate on the owners club forum about leaving the car to idle for a few minutes before driving off, people much more knowledgeable than I deemed it was best to not leave it idling from cold, and to drive away straight after firing it up, but be gentle with the revs until fully up to temperature.

As for economy ... you're not going to see anything as economical as 20mpg on a 3 mile run! I had a 15 mile each way commute to work, and averaged about 175-200 miles from brimmed to fuel light on. On a long run I could manage about 250 miles by the same measure. I drove it like a saint when it was cold, and like my hair was on fire once it warmed up and conditions allowed.

Does any of that help?

[Scottie - NW]

In near 3 years of RX8 ownership i only cold start flooded it once, on a 1.5 mile trip to the gym, and to be fair the battery was due for replacement then which didn't help.

The PZ model is superb, I'd recommend that, except the age of RX8's they are rusting badly now, like most Japanese cars sadly.

[ZX10R NIN]

I'm not sure but I think the IS250 Sport comes with a LSD as well as manual & they handle pretty well too but they do have high tax.

If it's a third car maybe this Cat S with more money off might be a good buy:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202107024...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011136...

[biggbn]

Rotary Potato said:

OK ... a little more detail here.

Essentially there are 3 separate issues that are linked to short journeys.

1. Cold flooding. The RX8 is started by dumping a metric f-ton of fuel in while spinning the engine. Once started, it takes a period of time for that fuel to burn off. From experience, that time period depends on whether you leave the engine sat idling, or start driving the car immediately. If you drive the car, a few hundred yards is enough to get rid of the excess fuel. After that, this problem becomes a non-issue. It's most likely to occur when shuffling cars about on a driveway, or giving your neighbour a jump start, being moved onto an MOT ramp at a garage ... that sort of thing. I've not known of anyone who's ever driven further than the end of the road and flooded their car. It's a real pain to solve, as you either have to tow start the car, or come close to burning out the starter motor following the 'official' Mazda method.

2. Carbon deposits. These do build up in the engine when it is cold. They do get cleared out by a good trip or 2 to 9000rpm. In a perfect world, you'd warm the car up fully and give it a few decent pulls through the gears on each drive. In reality, this is rarely possible ... and provided a good run and rev is done on a semi-regular basis, I've never seen or heard of any significant carbon build up occuring. If you ONLY ever used the car for a 3 mile school run, and NEVER allowed it to fully warm up, followed by some spirited driving - then you could have issues. This was more of a problem when the car was new ... people expected to just use it as a car (Mazda underplayed the more demanding usage profile of a rotary). Now most are in the hands of enthusiasts, people are aware they need to good blat every now and again to clear them out.

3. Excessive engine wear Like all engines, cold engine oil provides less protection than warm ... and so a greater proportion of engine wear will occur here. As a rotary engine tends to need a rebuild a lot more often than a regular piston engine, you're more likely to encounter excessive engine wear. Also, the odds of you being left holding the baby when an engine needs a rebuild are a lot higher when the rebuild mileages are nearer to 60k than 300k. Mitigation here is to not go over about 4k revs until the car is fully warmed up. After lots of debate on the owners club forum about leaving the car to idle for a few minutes before driving off, people much more knowledgeable than I deemed it was best to not leave it idling from cold, and to drive away straight after firing it up, but be gentle with the revs until fully up to temperature.

As for economy ... you're not going to see anything as economical as 20mpg on a 3 mile run! I had a 15 mile each way commute to work, and averaged about 175-200 miles from brimmed to fuel light on. On a long run I could manage about 250 miles by the same measure. I drove it like a saint when it was cold, and like my hair was on fire once it warmed up and conditions allowed.

Does any of that help?

Thanks for this, a car I really would love to own!!

[PH User]

ZX10R NIN said:

I'm not sure but I think the IS250 Sport comes with a LSD as well as manual & they handle pretty well too but they do have high tax.

If it's a third car maybe this Cat S with more money off might be a good buy:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202107024...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011136...

That's very high tax for such little performance!

[georgeyboy12345]

BMW's are fun to drive and RWD, and can sit 4

130i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102269...

330i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202107245...

Both of these feature the N52 motor, mixed reviews on reliability and both are a bit leggy, but then again, you are thinking about RX-8's so I don't think you are that fussed. Plus, like the RX-8 they are great fun to take out to the redline and make a great sound.

[KTMsm]

ZX10R NIN said:

I'm not sure but I think the IS250 Sport comes with a LSD as well as manual & they handle pretty well too but they do have high tax.

Thanks but they are a bigger,heavier, duller car - pretty much the same as the E46 onwards BMWs (although none of them even got an LSD below an M3)

Although google seems inconclusive about whether the IS250 had one

[KTMsm]

Rotary Potato said:

Does any of that help?

Yes thanks

[KTMsm]

georgeyboy12345 said:

BMW's are fun to drive and RWD, and can sit 4

130i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102269...

330i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202107245...

Both of these feature the N52 motor, mixed reviews on reliability and both are a bit leggy, but then again, you are thinking about RX-8's so I don't think you are that fussed. Plus, like the RX-8 they are great fun to take out to the redline and make a great sound.

I've owned a few E46 BMW (328 and 330 Sport) and wasn't impressed, clutch and throttle delay, too heavy, no feedback and no LSD, google suggests later cars aren't any better

[hiccy18]

Tweaked S14 200SX would be within £10k budget, stloads more suitable than an RX8 on the school run and fun in the corners in a DK kinda way. Lots more fun than an E46 too.

Driveway shuffling an RX8 is something you do once, 4+ hours and three battery charges to get the bloody thing started.

335i could be entertaining with some tweaks?

[AnneTeak]

Another vote here for the 130i. Ticks most boxes... 5 doors, RWD, straight six, 30mpg+, fairly reliable and depreciation free .

Nothing major to look out for, occasionally some leak around the rocker cover gasket (common on all N52 engines) but this is a quick fix. Tappetty noise is also nothing to worry about if it goes when warmed up (again not all do this, especially post LCI with revised head).

Not quite a Q car but most just think it's a 118d M Sport, when started up to a lovely note

[MajorMantra]

georgeyboy12345 said:

BMW's are fun to drive and RWD, and can sit 4

130i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102269...

330i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202107245...

Both of these feature the N52 motor, mixed reviews on reliability and both are a bit leggy, but then again, you are thinking about RX-8's so I don't think you are that fussed. Plus, like the RX-8 they are great fun to take out to the redline and make a great sound.

I own both an MX5 (NC, but I previously had an NA) and an E91 325i.

The BMW is a great car but it's a million miles from an MX5 in terms of fun. Granted, mine's the estate, but it's a big, heavy family car, a fundamentally different animal.

I really rate it for comfort and covering distance on fast roads with sweeping bends, but it's definitely not a 4-seat MX5 in any meaningful sense, which is what the OP asked for. MX5s have satisfying gearboxes and go-kart steering, and they're fun at low speeds. A 3-series is nothing like that.

[KTMsm]

MajorMantra said:

I own both an MX5 (NC, but I previously had an NA) and an E91 325i.

The BMW is a great car but it's a million miles from an MX5 in terms of fun. Granted, mine's the estate, but it's a big, heavy family car, a fundamentally different animal.

I really rate it for comfort and covering distance on fast roads with sweeping bends, but it's definitely not a 4-seat MX5 in any meaningful sense, which is what the OP asked for. MX5s have satisfying gearboxes and go-kart steering, and they're fun at low speeds. A 3-series is nothing like that.

I know

People tell me the the compact is more fun but the spec sheet suggests whilst the 318Ti at least has E30 rear suspension the 325Ti is effectively an E46 hatch - problem is that you can't really tell on a test drive around a town centre

[Mr Tidy]

KTMsm said:

I know

People tell me the the compact is more fun but the spec sheet suggests whilst the 318Ti at least has E30 rear suspension the 325Ti is effectively an E46 hatch - problem is that you can't really tell on a test drive around a town centre

The 318ti Compact was built as an E36 with the E30 rear suspension that doesn't seem too popular, yet so many people seem to rave about the E30 M3 with the same set up!

But the E46 318ti Compact had the E46 set up which I loved in my E46 325ti Sport - much more fun than my E91 325i or current E90 330i - I think I should have bought a 130i!

[KTMsm]

Update - I was looking for a 325ti but couldn't sleep so scrolled through ads this morning and found an IS200 Sport

Agreed to buy it at 7am, collecting tomorrow, which is when I'll find out why it was so cheap

Still fancy an RX8 though

[KTMsm]

Well that didn't last long

Whilst I'm sure it's a good example it's bloody slow off the line for 150bhp, with so little torque an LSD seems pointless

I've sold it

The hunt continues