Buying my first 'second' car?
Discussion
For a while I've had an itch to pick up an old(ish) second car for around £2-3k. I like the idea of a project that I can spend a bit of time gradually improving with some detailing work, wheel refurbishment, underseal etc. I'm particularly keen on cars I lusted after around the time I passed my test in 2005, and I keep coming back to the Focus ST170 and Fiesta ST (mk6). Am I overlooking anything else at this kind of budget? I'm not looking for an investment as such but it would be nice if it paid for itself or appreciated slightly if I came to move it on a few years down the line.
Am I better spending a little more on something which has had lots of work done and is in decent condition, or should I buy cheap and factor in having some work done so I know it's been done to a good standard?
Also any tips on how to run a second car would be really useful as it's not something I've ever done before. I'd quite like to be able to use it a couple of times a month and then keep it on trickle charge the rest of the time. What's the most cost effective way of insuring a car for this kind of use? It may be that I SORN the car during winter as I'm lucky enough to have enough space to run the car on private land to get everything up to temperature.
Am I better spending a little more on something which has had lots of work done and is in decent condition, or should I buy cheap and factor in having some work done so I know it's been done to a good standard?
Also any tips on how to run a second car would be really useful as it's not something I've ever done before. I'd quite like to be able to use it a couple of times a month and then keep it on trickle charge the rest of the time. What's the most cost effective way of insuring a car for this kind of use? It may be that I SORN the car during winter as I'm lucky enough to have enough space to run the car on private land to get everything up to temperature.
Great idea to keep yourself busy doing something you love, plus there is something satisfying about bringing an old tired car to life.
I would say it would be important to not bite off more than you can chew. These things have a habit of running away from you in terms of time and money. I wouldn't personally touch anything that requires a lot of welding etc, but that is because I can't do that myself.
R53 Mini Cooper S, ST170, cheap EP3/FN2, Leon Cupra/Cupra R, Celica/Corolla 190, Clio 172/182, MkV Golf GTI etc would all be good projects to get back on the road.
Invest in a C-Tek charger to trickle charge the battery when not in use, invaluable for something like this. Will condition the battery and stop you having to jump the car whenever you want to run it. I would personally keep something like that at the back of the driveway/in the garage and not bother insuring it, SORN it until your finished. If you are concerned about theft/damage or whatever then insure it and SORN.
EDIT - In terms of buying condition, that depends on your ability. Obviously if you buy something in good condition and well looked after, it isn't really a project. Something that needs work that you are comforatable doing yourself is the answer.
I would say it would be important to not bite off more than you can chew. These things have a habit of running away from you in terms of time and money. I wouldn't personally touch anything that requires a lot of welding etc, but that is because I can't do that myself.
R53 Mini Cooper S, ST170, cheap EP3/FN2, Leon Cupra/Cupra R, Celica/Corolla 190, Clio 172/182, MkV Golf GTI etc would all be good projects to get back on the road.
Invest in a C-Tek charger to trickle charge the battery when not in use, invaluable for something like this. Will condition the battery and stop you having to jump the car whenever you want to run it. I would personally keep something like that at the back of the driveway/in the garage and not bother insuring it, SORN it until your finished. If you are concerned about theft/damage or whatever then insure it and SORN.
EDIT - In terms of buying condition, that depends on your ability. Obviously if you buy something in good condition and well looked after, it isn't really a project. Something that needs work that you are comforatable doing yourself is the answer.
Edited by M.F.D on Wednesday 29th December 12:58
M.F.D said:
Great idea to keep yourself busy doing something you love, plus there is something satisfying about bringing an old tired car to life.
I would say it would be important to not bite off more than you can chew. These things have a habit of running away from you in terms of time and money. I wouldn't personally touch anything that requires a lot of welding etc, but that is because I can't do that myself.
R53 Mini Cooper S, ST170, cheap EP3/FN2, Leon Cupra/Cupra R, Celica/Corolla 190, Clio 172/182, MkV Golf GTI etc would all be good projects to get back on the road.
Invest in a C-Tek charger to trickle charge the battery when not in use, invaluable for something like this. Will condition the battery and stop you having to jump the car whenever you want to run it. I would personally keep something like that at the back of the driveway/in the garage and not bother insuring it, SORN it until your finished. If you are concerned about theft/damage or whatever then insure it and SORN.
EDIT - In terms of buying condition, that depends on your ability. Obviously if you buy something in good condition and well looked after, it isn't really a project. Something that needs work that you are comforatable doing yourself is the answer.
I would prefer to avoid a car that needs, or will need, a complete stripdown and new metal welding in during my ownership. With the sort of cars I'm looking at though, you can pay up to £4-5k for a mint one with no rust, or pick up a mechanically servicable one with bubbling arches for about £1.5k, so in some cases might it be worth going for the shabby one and finding a good bodyshop to work with?I would say it would be important to not bite off more than you can chew. These things have a habit of running away from you in terms of time and money. I wouldn't personally touch anything that requires a lot of welding etc, but that is because I can't do that myself.
R53 Mini Cooper S, ST170, cheap EP3/FN2, Leon Cupra/Cupra R, Celica/Corolla 190, Clio 172/182, MkV Golf GTI etc would all be good projects to get back on the road.
Invest in a C-Tek charger to trickle charge the battery when not in use, invaluable for something like this. Will condition the battery and stop you having to jump the car whenever you want to run it. I would personally keep something like that at the back of the driveway/in the garage and not bother insuring it, SORN it until your finished. If you are concerned about theft/damage or whatever then insure it and SORN.
EDIT - In terms of buying condition, that depends on your ability. Obviously if you buy something in good condition and well looked after, it isn't really a project. Something that needs work that you are comforatable doing yourself is the answer.
Edited by M.F.D on Wednesday 29th December 12:58
Civic Type R is a great shout, another car I loved and despite being a Ford fan at heart the Civic definitely had the more exciting drivetrain. The Focus is better looking and has nicer steering feel though. Civic's also seem to be a bit more pricey for similar age/mileage.
A supercharged Mini Cooper S would also be fun to drive and own but not quite as exciting to me, as they look fundamentally very similar to the ones you can still buy.
resolve10 said:
I would prefer to avoid a car that needs, or will need, a complete stripdown and new metal welding in during my ownership. With the sort of cars I'm looking at though, you can pay up to £4-5k for a mint one with no rust, or pick up a mechanically servicable one with bubbling arches for about £1.5k, so in some cases might it be worth going for the shabby one and finding a good bodyshop to work with?
Civic Type R is a great shout, another car I loved and despite being a Ford fan at heart the Civic definitely had the more exciting drivetrain. The Focus is better looking and has nicer steering feel though. Civic's also seem to be a bit more pricey for similar age/mileage.
A supercharged Mini Cooper S would also be fun to drive and own but not quite as exciting to me, as they look fundamentally very similar to the ones you can still buy.
To be fair an ST170 would be a great place to start if your a Ford man. Cheap as chips and getting to the age where I'm sure nice ones will fetch decent money. EP3's are expensive now, but you might manage one that needs some TLC. The milano red ones fade pretty badly, so might get one of them that has seen better days. The plus point is that they are super reliable, so should be a fairly safe bet. Civic Type R is a great shout, another car I loved and despite being a Ford fan at heart the Civic definitely had the more exciting drivetrain. The Focus is better looking and has nicer steering feel though. Civic's also seem to be a bit more pricey for similar age/mileage.
A supercharged Mini Cooper S would also be fun to drive and own but not quite as exciting to me, as they look fundamentally very similar to the ones you can still buy.
Started watching a YouTube video of someone that picked up a Mk6 Fiesta ST for £650 the other day! Didn't look in too bad nick in all honesty, though I didn't watch the whole thing.
I've only ran 2 cars at one point in my life, and in the end paying double insurance, tax, MOT etc. got the better of me and I sold on the project/Renault 5 GT Turbo. For a bloody grand. Should have kept hold of that one!
I've only ran 2 cars at one point in my life, and in the end paying double insurance, tax, MOT etc. got the better of me and I sold on the project/Renault 5 GT Turbo. For a bloody grand. Should have kept hold of that one!
I've been playing in this kind of ball park with second cars for a few years now, doubling them up as track cars, though I don't tend to do the whole stripping out thing as I keep them road legal and drive them to and from track.
I've had a Mk6 Fiesta ST
Mk2 Mazda MX-5
R53 Mini Cooper S
I paid less than £1500 for each of them.
The Fiesta was a great little car, a bit underpowered if anything and difficult to tune up for more but great handling.
I sold the Fiesta as I bought the MX-5 on a whim when my dad sold it, I decided I wanted to experience a convertible, I did love that car, though it was a little snug for me, best on road car of the three I've listed and I am now lusting after another convertible having never wanted one previously.
The R53 I got at a really cheap price as it was badly modified and I put it back to standard and again it was a great car, a lot of fun and the supercharger whine is great to hear, it's phenomenal handling, not that fast in a straight (not that any of the cars were) and the fuel consumption is silly in reality for the power output, still a great experience though.
I have also driven an ST170 and as a previous Ford man myself I thought I would love it but sadly it's not really special at all, I wouldn't recommend it, I did own a Mk1 Focus RS but thats a different animal all together.
If I was buying now with a 3k budget i'd probably get a Clio 182 or maybe a Civic FN2, I do like the EP3's but even at double the budget it's hard to find a half decent one now.
I've had a Mk6 Fiesta ST
Mk2 Mazda MX-5
R53 Mini Cooper S
I paid less than £1500 for each of them.
The Fiesta was a great little car, a bit underpowered if anything and difficult to tune up for more but great handling.
I sold the Fiesta as I bought the MX-5 on a whim when my dad sold it, I decided I wanted to experience a convertible, I did love that car, though it was a little snug for me, best on road car of the three I've listed and I am now lusting after another convertible having never wanted one previously.
The R53 I got at a really cheap price as it was badly modified and I put it back to standard and again it was a great car, a lot of fun and the supercharger whine is great to hear, it's phenomenal handling, not that fast in a straight (not that any of the cars were) and the fuel consumption is silly in reality for the power output, still a great experience though.
I have also driven an ST170 and as a previous Ford man myself I thought I would love it but sadly it's not really special at all, I wouldn't recommend it, I did own a Mk1 Focus RS but thats a different animal all together.
If I was buying now with a 3k budget i'd probably get a Clio 182 or maybe a Civic FN2, I do like the EP3's but even at double the budget it's hard to find a half decent one now.
M.F.D said:
To be fair an ST170 would be a great place to start if your a Ford man. Cheap as chips and getting to the age where I'm sure nice ones will fetch decent money. EP3's are expensive now, but you might manage one that needs some TLC. The milano red ones fade pretty badly, so might get one of them that has seen better days. The plus point is that they are super reliable, so should be a fairly safe bet.
They do have issues with the IMRC unit that controls the VVT, but there's a guy on the owners club on Facebook who refurbishes them so not a big issue to fix. You see some listed with huge mileages so presumably the main oily bits are solid enough, if a little uninspiring compared to the Civic Type R.I am still interested in other suggestions incase I've missed something genuinely interesting, but I do think I'd find it hard to look past one if a good one came up for sale.
CrippsCorner said:
Started watching a YouTube video of someone that picked up a Mk6 Fiesta ST for £650 the other day! Didn't look in too bad nick in all honesty, though I didn't watch the whole thing.
I've only ran 2 cars at one point in my life, and in the end paying double insurance, tax, MOT etc. got the better of me and I sold on the project/Renault 5 GT Turbo. For a bloody grand. Should have kept hold of that one!
I can garage any car I buy and at the value I'm looking at I could get away with not insuring or taxing it for 6 months of the year (if such an insurance policy exists?). MOT is negligible cost as long as nothing goes wrong with it! The main extra costs will be general maintenance of a 15-year old car, which I'm prepared for.I've only ran 2 cars at one point in my life, and in the end paying double insurance, tax, MOT etc. got the better of me and I sold on the project/Renault 5 GT Turbo. For a bloody grand. Should have kept hold of that one!
Sorry to hear about the GT Turbo!
Go for it! Just had a snoop through Autotrader, here are some good finds (in my opinion). Remember with these types of cars you have a good chance of bidding them down, especially when you wave a load of notes in their face!
Ford Focus ST170 - Cat D and clutch has gone, but for a bag of sand that leaves you plenty of money to sort
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202108316...
Or for an extra £650, this one looks in pretty tidy condition and you should be able to drive it home no problems
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111179...
You could even get a later ST with the 2.5 turbo motor
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111119...
Staying with Fords, here's a nice little de-chavification project for you in the form of this Fiesta ST. Get rid of the horrible black wheels, boombox, sort out the interior, bodywork scuffs, tyres, suspension bits, brake pipes.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111149...
Here's some other stuff I found that I think could be worth a punt
Renaultsport Clio 182, will probably require the usual Clio 182 which is well documented on forums, buying guides, etc
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109297...
Lovely looking BMW 330Ci that needs plenty of stuff sorting. These are tipped to become quite valuable in a few years with their M3 counterparts skyrocketing. The rust could be a step too far possibly though?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112260...
Mini Cooper S with compression issues
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112170...
Sub £1000 Audi TT Quattro that might need some engine work to pass its MOT
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112160...
or for the top end of your budget, here's one in pretty good condition
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111189...
Related to the TTs of that period, here's a Seat Leon Cupra R with 270 bhp that has some niggles with its brakes
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202105222...
Mazda RX-8 - probably due an engine rebuild I'd wager, but you might be ok for a bit
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111079...
This Mercedes CLK 430 could be a step too far as there are some mentions of rust on its MOT history, but it's the only V8 here so I had to include it!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111189...
Saab 9-3s are starting to get a bit thin on the ground now, how about conserving the 2.0T Aero?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112190...
Ford Focus ST170 - Cat D and clutch has gone, but for a bag of sand that leaves you plenty of money to sort
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202108316...
Or for an extra £650, this one looks in pretty tidy condition and you should be able to drive it home no problems
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111179...
You could even get a later ST with the 2.5 turbo motor
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111119...
Staying with Fords, here's a nice little de-chavification project for you in the form of this Fiesta ST. Get rid of the horrible black wheels, boombox, sort out the interior, bodywork scuffs, tyres, suspension bits, brake pipes.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111149...
Here's some other stuff I found that I think could be worth a punt
Renaultsport Clio 182, will probably require the usual Clio 182 which is well documented on forums, buying guides, etc
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109297...
Lovely looking BMW 330Ci that needs plenty of stuff sorting. These are tipped to become quite valuable in a few years with their M3 counterparts skyrocketing. The rust could be a step too far possibly though?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112260...
Mini Cooper S with compression issues
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112170...
Sub £1000 Audi TT Quattro that might need some engine work to pass its MOT
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112160...
or for the top end of your budget, here's one in pretty good condition
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111189...
Related to the TTs of that period, here's a Seat Leon Cupra R with 270 bhp that has some niggles with its brakes
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202105222...
Mazda RX-8 - probably due an engine rebuild I'd wager, but you might be ok for a bit
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111079...
This Mercedes CLK 430 could be a step too far as there are some mentions of rust on its MOT history, but it's the only V8 here so I had to include it!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111189...
Saab 9-3s are starting to get a bit thin on the ground now, how about conserving the 2.0T Aero?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202112190...
Edited by georgeyboy12345 on Wednesday 29th December 15:34
If you want a V8 project the this CLK500 is where my money would go:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324903491435?hash=item4...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324903491435?hash=item4...
If you’re looking to add value, go for something that’s as original and unmolested as possible, even if it’s higher mileage or a little rough around the edges.
In my experience the more new parts and pairs of hands that have been on a car, the more of other peoples’ incompetence you have to undo.
Edited to add: and welcome to second car ownership! The pleasure of being able to still have your car in bits on a Sunday night, or plan a long-term job is really rewarding and revolutionary compared to DIYing your daily driver.
In my experience the more new parts and pairs of hands that have been on a car, the more of other peoples’ incompetence you have to undo.
Edited to add: and welcome to second car ownership! The pleasure of being able to still have your car in bits on a Sunday night, or plan a long-term job is really rewarding and revolutionary compared to DIYing your daily driver.
RX8 is a great shout, I've always been intrigued by them.
I've found an ST170 local to me with 12 months MOT. 107k miles but all the usual tasks have been taken care of (cambelt, clutch, thermostat housing, fuel pump and IMRC) . The only issue, and probably why it isn't £1-2k more expensive, is the offside rear arch and part of the sill is bubbling quite badly.
I'm weary about this as I know rust is a problem on these cars and will almost definitely have spread to other areas. The thing that's strange is the nearside and front wings look totally fine (from the photos). Seller seems trustworthy and has said the only other rust is a small patch near the tailgate handle, which is common.
I'm probably going to go take a look in person but it's tricky this time of year with the dark evenings.
Anyone with experience of 20 year old Ford's, particularly the mk1 Focus, I would appreciate any advice on which areas to pay close attention to when I check it over. I'm not afraid of spending money putting it right, I just want to avoid buying a lost cause.
I've found an ST170 local to me with 12 months MOT. 107k miles but all the usual tasks have been taken care of (cambelt, clutch, thermostat housing, fuel pump and IMRC) . The only issue, and probably why it isn't £1-2k more expensive, is the offside rear arch and part of the sill is bubbling quite badly.
I'm weary about this as I know rust is a problem on these cars and will almost definitely have spread to other areas. The thing that's strange is the nearside and front wings look totally fine (from the photos). Seller seems trustworthy and has said the only other rust is a small patch near the tailgate handle, which is common.
I'm probably going to go take a look in person but it's tricky this time of year with the dark evenings.
Anyone with experience of 20 year old Ford's, particularly the mk1 Focus, I would appreciate any advice on which areas to pay close attention to when I check it over. I'm not afraid of spending money putting it right, I just want to avoid buying a lost cause.
Edited by resolve10 on Monday 3rd January 11:06
resolve10 said:
I would prefer to avoid a car that needs, or will need, a complete stripdown and new metal welding in during my ownership.
It's probably fair to say we'd all prefer that, but it happens anyway and if it needs done, it needs done. Keeping the car dry and warm will slow corrosion but if the previous owners didn't do that too (unlikely at this price point) it's likely that corrosion has started. It's a long outdated notion that rust starts on the outside. Almost all reasonably modern cars rust from the inside. You can't see it until you can which sounds obvious, but when you finally do manage to push in a sill panel or stick a screwdriver through it, you realistically are going to find more inside.A total stripdown should be fairly easily avoidable. To manage expectations though, you should be realistic about the prospect of removing some interior trim and pulling back carpets for localised cutting and welding. That doesn't mean your hobby is going to turn into car restoration, but if you do get visible rust or an MOT failure then the value you can get from selling is going to tank if you're not prepared to get it fixed to a decent standard.
Don't let this put you off. Old cars are nice. They just need a little love occasionally.
jamieduff1981 said:
It's probably fair to say we'd all prefer that, but it happens anyway and if it needs done, it needs done. Keeping the car dry and warm will slow corrosion but if the previous owners didn't do that too (unlikely at this price point) it's likely that corrosion has started. It's a long outdated notion that rust starts on the outside. Almost all reasonably modern cars rust from the inside. You can't see it until you can which sounds obvious, but when you finally do manage to push in a sill panel or stick a screwdriver through it, you realistically are going to find more inside.
A total stripdown should be fairly easily avoidable. To manage expectations though, you should be realistic about the prospect of removing some interior trim and pulling back carpets for localised cutting and welding. That doesn't mean your hobby is going to turn into car restoration, but if you do get visible rust or an MOT failure then the value you can get from selling is going to tank if you're not prepared to get it fixed to a decent standard.
Don't let this put you off. Old cars are nice. They just need a little love occasionally.
Thanks for the input, that all makes sense. I think they only thing holding me back is this isn't an Escort Cosworth or a Focus RS, it's just an ST170 and whilst they will no doubt go up in value for a good one once all the scruffy ones are sent to the scrappers, it's never going to be a £10k+ car so I have to be realistic about how much to spend trying to save one.A total stripdown should be fairly easily avoidable. To manage expectations though, you should be realistic about the prospect of removing some interior trim and pulling back carpets for localised cutting and welding. That doesn't mean your hobby is going to turn into car restoration, but if you do get visible rust or an MOT failure then the value you can get from selling is going to tank if you're not prepared to get it fixed to a decent standard.
Don't let this put you off. Old cars are nice. They just need a little love occasionally.
The MOT history on the car is fairly positive. It had advisories for corrosion on both sub frames and all four springs in 2020, but nothing menioned on the subsequent MOT's. Either it was fixed or the next tester less fussy!
I'm aware many people start these threads and never come back, so I wanted to thank everyone who advised and encouraged me by updating with the news I collected an 03-plate Focus ST170 today 
She's a bit scabby around the edges, particularly the rear offside arch, but came with receipts for a new clutch, fuel pump, coil pack, track rod ends and new tyres in the last year, and has MOT until the end of the year. As a result, it drives brilliantly - way beyond what I expected from an 18 year old car.
It's possible I could have found a tidier example if I'd held out, but they are becoming rarer and this one was just 15 miles down the road and very well priced. I'd love to spend some money bringing it back it its former glory, but I'm realistic and realise there's a good chance it could be a lost cause with underbody rot. If that turns out to be the case, I'll just enjoy it until the MOT runs out and save putting miles on my daily driver. The value difference on my daily will cover most of the cost of the ST170.
She's a bit scabby around the edges, particularly the rear offside arch, but came with receipts for a new clutch, fuel pump, coil pack, track rod ends and new tyres in the last year, and has MOT until the end of the year. As a result, it drives brilliantly - way beyond what I expected from an 18 year old car.
It's possible I could have found a tidier example if I'd held out, but they are becoming rarer and this one was just 15 miles down the road and very well priced. I'd love to spend some money bringing it back it its former glory, but I'm realistic and realise there's a good chance it could be a lost cause with underbody rot. If that turns out to be the case, I'll just enjoy it until the MOT runs out and save putting miles on my daily driver. The value difference on my daily will cover most of the cost of the ST170.
resolve10 said:
I'm aware many people start these threads and never come back, so I wanted to thank everyone who advised and encouraged me by updating with the news I collected an 03-plate Focus ST170 today
She's a bit scabby around the edges, particularly the rear offside arch, but came with receipts for a new clutch, fuel pump, coil pack, track rod ends and new tyres in the last year, and has MOT until the end of the year. As a result, it drives brilliantly - way beyond what I expected from an 18 year old car.
It's possible I could have found a tidier example if I'd held out, but they are becoming rarer and this one was just 15 miles down the road and very well priced. I'd love to spend some money bringing it back it its former glory, but I'm realistic and realise there's a good chance it could be a lost cause with underbody rot. If that turns out to be the case, I'll just enjoy it until the MOT runs out and save putting miles on my daily driver. The value difference on my daily will cover most of the cost of the ST170.
Nice to see this post coming to a conclusion. Hopefully you get to the rot before it becomes fatal. Enjoy the car though, glad you went for it.She's a bit scabby around the edges, particularly the rear offside arch, but came with receipts for a new clutch, fuel pump, coil pack, track rod ends and new tyres in the last year, and has MOT until the end of the year. As a result, it drives brilliantly - way beyond what I expected from an 18 year old car.
It's possible I could have found a tidier example if I'd held out, but they are becoming rarer and this one was just 15 miles down the road and very well priced. I'd love to spend some money bringing it back it its former glory, but I'm realistic and realise there's a good chance it could be a lost cause with underbody rot. If that turns out to be the case, I'll just enjoy it until the MOT runs out and save putting miles on my daily driver. The value difference on my daily will cover most of the cost of the ST170.
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