Modern, manual sports cars
Discussion
Are there any left at all? Looking for a used performance daily (ideally budget circa £17k), but with a manual box, and they seem few and far between. Reasonably modern BMW 1 series, Audi S3, Golf type R, or older S4's, M3's etc seem to be about the only options. Why are modern cars all automatics? Are there no demands for manual boxes any more?
They're just better, for years I said I will never own an automatic, they're not as pure/fun as a manual.
Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
Condi said:
Are there any left at all? Looking for a used performance daily (ideally budget circa £17k), but with a manual box, and they seem few and far between. Reasonably modern BMW 1 series, Audi S3, Golf type R, or older S4's, M3's etc seem to be about the only options. Why are modern cars all automatics? Are there no demands for manual boxes any more?
Nissan 370Z Nismo, they'd normally be out of budget but this CAT car could be a good buy after an inspection:https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202102...
Or you could opt for the regular GT:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207217...
PHuzzy said:
They're just better, for years I said I will never own an automatic, they're not as pure/fun as a manual.
Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
They're still not- nor will they ever be, but they are more convenient for day to day driving and when you generally can't be arsed.Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
If using a gear lever and clutch pedal is a big part of what you enjoy about driving enthusiastically, it doesn't matter how fast or how good an automatic/paddleshift is.
To answer the OP, I'd say a Boxster/Cayman are an obvious shout.
You could go for a Porsche Boxster 2.9 Manual (Gen 2). -DFI engines are pretty much bulletproof
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205316...
Below 17k, there are more options with gen 1 both 987.1 and 986. However, there is a risk of massive bill of engine blowing up. (I say risk, not certainty)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205316...
Below 17k, there are more options with gen 1 both 987.1 and 986. However, there is a risk of massive bill of engine blowing up. (I say risk, not certainty)
Patrick Bateman said:
PHuzzy said:
They're just better, for years I said I will never own an automatic, they're not as pure/fun as a manual.
Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
They're still not- nor will they ever be, but they are more convenient for day to day driving and when you generally can't be arsed.Then I ordered my first Seat Leon with a DSG box and I will now never buy another manual.
I've just bought an M240i and ruled out any with a manual, the ZF8 speed is an engineering masterpiece, it feels almost as fast as the DSG box with manual shifts but adds more of a kick, it'll also (surprisingly to me) hold it on the limiter unlike the previous DSGs I had.
For commuting/daily driving, I'll leave it in D as it's just easy and chilled, if I want to drive it hard I'll put it in manual and use the paddles.
If using a gear lever and clutch pedal is a big part of what you enjoy about driving enthusiastically, it doesn't matter how fast or how good an automatic/paddleshift is.
To answer the OP, I'd say a Boxster/Cayman are an obvious shout.
I'm finally at the stage where I'd be happy to just have a car with a DCT. I never ever thought that I'd feel like that to be honest. I will hand my PH card in on the way out!
Same as many others, once I moved to auto I can't look back. Maybe people still think of autos from times gone by, but current ZF etc are exceptionally good and fast shifting and you can keep your hands on the wheel. Formula 1 use paddles mind. Also when crawling in traffic an auto is just so much better, pumping your left hoof and stirring away just seems so uncivilised now.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
Condi said:
Are there any left at all? Looking for a used performance daily (ideally budget circa £17k), but with a manual box, and they seem few and far between. Reasonably modern BMW 1 series, Audi S3, Golf type R, or older S4's, M3's etc seem to be about the only options. Why are modern cars all automatics? Are there no demands for manual boxes any more?
None of the cars you mention I would call a sports car, as in the thread title. I'd call an MX-5, GR86 or Boxster a sports car, all of which continue to come with a manual.There are also a fair few hot hatches still in manual - Fiesta ST, Civic Type R, Pug 208, Hyundai i20N/i30N, GR Yaris.
So I'm not sure exactly what type of car you're looking for, which used to come in manual but is now only available in automatic? AMGs and Lexuses are auto only, but t'was ever thus. BMW 1 and 2 series still have a manual. I guess it's the M3 and S4 mainly where the manual has been phased out, anything else?
In terms of the wider debate about the desirability of gearbox types, I think it's important not to be influenced either by the PH manual die-hards, nor on the other hand the PR of manufacturers spying the chance to eliminate a chunk of development cost by standardising on a paddle-shift only, but to instead make one's own mind up based on experience.
Personally when I was choosing a performance daily I decided to sacrifice the manual box in order to get a car that was otherwise what I wanted. While the C55 AMG's five speed torque converter isn't perfect, it collaborates well with the V8 and on balance, it's probably a net positive for daily driving - I find it more relaxing mooching through towns or villages, or where you have to stop and start a lot, and at the other extreme it's nice not to have to take a hand off the wheel when accelerating through the ton on the autobahn. But I can see it both ways, it's also satisfying to put in a perfect heel and toe downshift, blipping the engine to the redline and smoothly engaging the clutch.
ninjag said:
Same as many others, once I moved to auto I can't look back. Maybe people still think of autos from times gone by, but current ZF etc are exceptionally good and fast shifting and you can keep your hands on the wheel. Formula 1 use paddles mind. Also when crawling in traffic an auto is just so much better, pumping your left hoof and stirring away just seems so uncivilised now.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
Auto boxes may be faster but that doesn't mean they are more fun. Formula 1 doesn't use paddles because they are fun.The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
PrinceRupert said:
ninjag said:
Same as many others, once I moved to auto I can't look back. Maybe people still think of autos from times gone by, but current ZF etc are exceptionally good and fast shifting and you can keep your hands on the wheel. Formula 1 use paddles mind. Also when crawling in traffic an auto is just so much better, pumping your left hoof and stirring away just seems so uncivilised now.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
Auto boxes may be faster but that doesn't mean they are more fun. Formula 1 doesn't use paddles because they are fun.The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
One thing I don't like about some autos is that even in manual mode they still kick down. I know it can often be changed in software, but it's annoying.
ninjag said:
Same as many others, once I moved to auto I can't look back. Maybe people still think of autos from times gone by, but current ZF etc are exceptionally good and fast shifting and you can keep your hands on the wheel. Formula 1 use paddles mind. Also when crawling in traffic an auto is just so much better, pumping your left hoof and stirring away just seems so uncivilised now.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
Even with petrol I find myself in sport manual less often with the ZF8-just too many gears to flick through. I appreciate it's technically excellent and provides greater economy than predecessors, but I used the paddles much more in older cars where there were only 6 gears.The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
fflump said:
ninjag said:
Same as many others, once I moved to auto I can't look back. Maybe people still think of autos from times gone by, but current ZF etc are exceptionally good and fast shifting and you can keep your hands on the wheel. Formula 1 use paddles mind. Also when crawling in traffic an auto is just so much better, pumping your left hoof and stirring away just seems so uncivilised now.
The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
Even with petrol I find myself in sport manual less often with the ZF8-just too many gears to flick through. I appreciate it's technically excellent and provides greater economy than predecessors, but I used the paddles much more in older cars where there were only 6 gears.The only down side to paddles for me was with the likes of the ZF8 in a diesel. Short power bands and 8 gears means a lot of manual shifting and it's not always easy to hear the engine note, especially if the car is well insulated. Much better with a petrol though.
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