BMW X5 (E70) vs MB ML (W164) vs Audi Q7 (Typ 4L)

[RockDriver]

Location: London.
I'm considering one of these three old clunkers. Now, I know the usual "old luxury SUV is a money black hole" mantra, but I'm just mostly trying to determine which one of them is least likely to experience catastrophic failure during a long journey. My use cases:

• Local/national trips several times a month.
• Driving across continental Europe several times a year, 1300 miles one way.

I don't expect to own this car longer than 2-3 years.

Complication: primarily looking for ULEZ compliant vehicle, meaning in this price range (under £10K) - petrol only. I'm not ruling out diesels completely though if there are really good reasons, unfortunately London has declared war on them and it's only gonna get worse. I know that petrols will be demonized too sooner or later, which is one of the main reasons I'm not looking to drop five figures on a car that will crash in value in the near future.

I'm familiar with owning SUVs, having owned the first gen Mercedes ML V8 and Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 in the past. Got lucky with both of them not having to spend a lot in maintenance.

The MB W164 is most attractive option price/tax/insurance wise, but I am aware of the M272 engine balance shaft defect - buying one with this issue not fixed in the past is a ticking time bomb kinda situation.

Thoughts?

[dmsims]

None of the above

Lexus RX450h

[RockDriver]

dmsims said:

None of the above

Lexus RX450h

Why? Because of it's reliability record? To be honest I never liked Lexus, it just looks straight up ugly to me, especially the SUVs.

[ZX10R NIN]

RockDriver said:

Location: London.
I'm considering one of these three old clunkers. Now, I know the usual "old luxury SUV is a money black hole" mantra, but I'm just mostly trying to determine which one of them is least likely to experience catastrophic failure during a long journey. My use cases:

• Local/national trips several times a month.
• Driving across continental Europe several times a year, 1300 miles one way.

I don't expect to own this car longer than 2-3 years.

Complication: primarily looking for ULEZ compliant vehicle, meaning in this price range (under £10K) - petrol only. I'm not ruling out diesels completely though if there are really good reasons, unfortunately London has declared war on them and it's only gonna get worse. I know that petrols will be demonized too sooner or later, which is one of the main reasons I'm not looking to drop five figures on a car that will crash in value in the near future.

I'm familiar with owning SUVs, having owned the first gen Mercedes ML V8 and Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 in the past. Got lucky with both of them not having to spend a lot in maintenance.

The MB W164 is most attractive option price/tax/insurance wise, but I am aware of the M272 engine balance shaft defect - buying one with this issue not fixed in the past is a ticking time bomb kinda situation.

Thoughts?

There is a ULEZ compliant diesel SUV but the looks aren't the best but they're properly spec'd Air Cooled seats etc, spend £500 extra & you can add Android Auto/Apple CarPlay.

Infiniti EX these are X3 sized but a good option as they're in the lower tax bracket:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210200...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210311...

FX S Premium:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209099...

S:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207017...

Executive:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209129...

You can get them in Petrol form too:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205025...

X5 4.8i SE the V8 has a few issues but a lot of these can taken care of by preventative maintenance:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210080...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208018...

Out of the petrol options the ML500 would be my pick they're between 3-6mpg worse on fuel than the 3.5 but they're pretty much bulletproof:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208098...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211071...

If not the ML then this SRT Grand Cherokee would be my next pick:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210120...

Or this positively sensible 5.7 Overland maybe worth a look:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210040...

The Q7 is an option but the 3.6 has similar timing chain issues to the 3.5 Mercedes unit, rather than the Q7 I'd go for Cayenne in 4.8S spec:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207157...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211021...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210261...

[dmsims]

RockDriver said:

Why? Because of it's reliability record? To be honest I never liked Lexus, it just looks straight up ugly to me, especially the SUVs.

That's a bit of an oxymoron, they are all 3 paper baggers

[RockDriver]

ZX10R NIN said:

There is a ULEZ compliant diesel SUV but the looks aren't the best but they're properly spec'd Air Cooled seats etc, spend £500 extra & you can add Android Auto/Apple CarPlay.

Infiniti EX these are X3 sized but a good option as they're in the lower tax bracket:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210200...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210311...

FX S Premium:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209099...

S:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207017...

Executive:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209129...

You can get them in Petrol form too:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205025...

X5 4.8i SE the V8 has a few issues but a lot of these can taken care of by preventative maintenance:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210080...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208018...

Out of the petrol options the ML500 would be my pick they're between 3-6mpg worse on fuel than the 3.5 but they're pretty much bulletproof:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208098...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211071...

If not the ML then this SRT Grand Cherokee would be my next pick:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210120...

Or this positively sensible 5.7 Overland maybe worth a look:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210040...

The Q7 is an option but the 3.6 has similar timing chain issues to the 3.5 Mercedes unit, rather than the Q7 I'd go for Cayenne in 4.8S spec:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207157...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211021...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210261...

Thanks for the list. Some interesting options. By the way - you said Q7 3.6 FSI has similar issues to ML350, but then how about Q7 4.2 FSI - is it affected as well?
Also found an interesting option - Q7 3.0 TDI Clean Diesel which is Euro 6 and thus ULEZ compliant - thoughts about this one ( https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210120...)?
I'm sort of leaning towards the X5 V8 - from what I gathered so far, provided it was kept well it should be a reasonably safe choice.

[Bendo]

I'd double check these old diesels that claim to be E6 but are from before the E6 standard became mandatory.

Although having checked that Audi. It does seem to comply...

[ZX10R NIN]

RockDriver said:

Thanks for the list. Some interesting options. By the way - you said Q7 3.6 FSI has similar issues to ML350, but then how about Q7 4.2 FSI - is it affected as well?
Also found an interesting option - Q7 3.0 TDI Clean Diesel which is Euro 6 and thus ULEZ compliant - thoughts about this one ( https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210120...)?
I'm sort of leaning towards the X5 V8 - from what I gathered so far, provided it was kept well it should be a reasonably safe choice.

I have to say that Q7 looks like it's done all of it's 124k the hard way, I'd be wanting a good look/extended test drive before that saw a penny of my money.

The V8 BMW is a good option as long as you get the preventative work carried out, they'll last too but it may cost you bit before you get there, I have to say out of the petrol options the Cayenne 4.8S & ML500 would be the two on my shortlist.

The main thing is to buy on condition check everything twice & if you hear any knocks from the suspension assume the worst & go from there.

The 4.2 seems to be less affected by the timing chain issue.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 13th November 21:51

[ZX10R NIN]

Bendo said:

I'd double check these old diesels that claim to be E6 but are from before the E6 standard became mandatory.

Although having checked that Audi. It does seem to comply...

All Nissan/Infiniti 3.0d's are all ULEZ compliant.

[RockDriver]

ZX10R NIN said:

I have to say that Q7 looks like it's done all of it's 124k the hard way, I'd be wanting a good look/extended test drive before that saw a penny of my money.

The V8 BMW is a good option as long as you get the preventative work carried out, they'll last too but it may cost you bit before you get there, I have to say out of the petrol options the Cayenne 4.8S & ML500 would be the two on my shortlist.

The main thing is to buy on condition check everything twice & if you hear any knocks from the suspension assume the worst & go from there.

The 4.2 seems to be less affected by the timing chain issue.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 13th November 21:51

• BMW X5 (E70) 4.8i, petrol - notorious N62B48 engine, known issues with steam seals which cost a fortune to fix. Possible to avoid (postpone?) the problem by changing oil often, but if when bought stem seals are (nearly) gone already - that won't help?
• MB ML350 (W164), petrol - notorious M272 engine with defective balance shaft which costs a fortune to fix. Only a viable option if the balance shaft was already replaced in the past?
• MB ML500 (W164), petrol - good engine, unfortunately no options in the sub £10K range probably for that reason. The only one there is doesn't even have leather seats and that's a dealbreaker for me.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 3.6 FSI, petrol - common issue is timing chain tensioner failure, costs thousands to fix.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 4.2 FSI, petrol - apparently less common issue with the timing chain tensioner failure. No viable options in the sub £10K range, naturally.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 3.0 TDI CD, diesel - Euro 6 ULEZ compliant, but the only options in the sub £10K are either from private sellers or dealers with bad reviews - both red flags to avoid.
• Porsche Cayenne 4.8 S, petrol - good engine, but it's a 20 year old model. I know I'm looking to buy an old clunker, but maybe not that old. Porsches are unknown quantity to me as well, rather would like to pick the devil I know.

So to summarize - it's depressing. Maybe I should look at the non Euro 6 diesels, the market is flooded with them, ULEZ charges be damned. But of course, I assume they all have catastrophic failure problems of their own?

Side question about the high mileage cars - is it true that it's better to buy a high mileage car that spent most of it's time on motorways and was reasonably well maintained rather than lower mileage car that saw it's fair share of bad roads and has questionable maintenance record?

[ZX10R NIN]

RockDriver said:

• BMW X5 (E70) 4.8i, petrol - notorious N62B48 engine, known issues with steam seals which cost a fortune to fix. Possible to avoid (postpone?) the problem by changing oil often, but if when bought stem seals are (nearly) gone already - that won't help?
• MB ML350 (W164), petrol - notorious M272 engine with defective balance shaft which costs a fortune to fix. Only a viable option if the balance shaft was already replaced in the past?
• MB ML500 (W164), petrol - good engine, unfortunately no options in the sub £10K range probably for that reason. The only one there is doesn't even have leather seats and that's a dealbreaker for me.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 3.6 FSI, petrol - common issue is timing chain tensioner failure, costs thousands to fix.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 4.2 FSI, petrol - apparently less common issue with the timing chain tensioner failure. No viable options in the sub £10K range, naturally.
• Audi Q7 (Typ 4L) 3.0 TDI CD, diesel - Euro 6 ULEZ compliant, but the only options in the sub £10K are either from private sellers or dealers with bad reviews - both red flags to avoid.
• Porsche Cayenne 4.8 S, petrol - good engine, but it's a 20 year old model. I know I'm looking to buy an old clunker, but maybe not that old. Porsches are unknown quantity to me as well, rather would like to pick the devil I know.

So to summarize - it's depressing. Maybe I should look at the non Euro 6 diesels, the market is flooded with them, ULEZ charges be damned. But of course, I assume they all have catastrophic failure problems of their own?

Side question about the high mileage cars - is it true that it's better to buy a high mileage car that spent most of it's time on motorways and was reasonably well maintained rather than lower mileage car that saw it's fair share of bad roads and has questionable maintenance record?

I take it you didn't fancy the Infiniti's as you didn't mention them & they tick every box.

The ML500's at this price point will be half leather models but I'd still go for one as it's the best option when it comes to the German petrols.

The Porsche's are pretty robust & a decent specialist will keep your costs to similar levels to the Q7.

With a high mileage car where it's made those miles is pretty much irrelevant, what does matter more than anything is maintenance.

You'll want to see receipts & be aware of potential future costs (suspension/turbos etc) due to the mileage.

[RockDriver]

ZX10R NIN said:

I take it you didn't fancy the Infiniti's as you didn't mention them & they tick every box.

The ML500's at this price point will be half leather models but I'd still go for one as it's the best option when it comes to the German petrols.

The Porsche's are pretty robust & a decent specialist will keep your costs to similar levels to the Q7.

With a high mileage car where it's made those miles is pretty much irrelevant, what does matter more than anything is maintenance.

You'll want to see receipts & be aware of potential future costs (suspension/turbos etc) due to the mileage.

Yeah, Infinity just doesn't do it for me.

I took another look at the two ML500s you've linked and neither of them have kilometers on their speedometer discs which is straight up weird, because absolute majority of UK cars have both. So this ruins it for me completely, because I need to cross continental Europe in this car and something tells me replacing the speedometer unit is neither fun nor cheap.

You said BMW X5 4.8i wasn't too bad. I've read a bunch of "white smoke" horror stories about it when valve stem seals go. After some digging around apparently there's a garage outside Birmingham that specializes in that and the price is £950 (at least according to their website) which would be dirt cheap, considering most people end up paying thousands. I need to drive across continental Europe in December, I wonder if buying the car and just replacing stem seals as a preventative measure would be a good idea?

Edited by RockDriver on Monday 14th November 23:06

Edited by RockDriver on Monday 14th November 23:06

Edited by RockDriver on Monday 14th November 23:24

[GreatGranny]

Q5

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210160...

XC60

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209149...

Santa Fe

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211071...

Or just sod it and get this

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206267...

[ilikejam]

RockDriver said:

ZX10R NIN said:

I take it you didn't fancy the Infiniti's as you didn't mention them & they tick every box.

The ML500's at this price point will be half leather models but I'd still go for one as it's the best option when it comes to the German petrols.

The Porsche's are pretty robust & a decent specialist will keep your costs to similar levels to the Q7.

With a high mileage car where it's made those miles is pretty much irrelevant, what does matter more than anything is maintenance.

You'll want to see receipts & be aware of potential future costs (suspension/turbos etc) due to the mileage.

Yeah, Infinity just doesn't do it for me.

I took another look at the two ML500s you've linked and neither of them have kilometers on their speedometer discs which is straight up weird, because absolute majority of UK cars have both. So this ruins it for me completely, because I need to cross continental Europe in this car and something tells me replacing the speedometer unit is neither fun nor cheap.

You said BMW X5 4.8i wasn't too bad. I've read a bunch of "white smoke" horror stories about it when valve stem seals go. After some digging around apparently there's a garage outside Birmingham that specializes in that and the price is £950 (at least according to their website) which would be dirt cheap, considering most people end up paying thousands. I need to drive across continental Europe in December, I wonder if buying the car and just replacing stem seals as a preventative measure would be a good idea?

I bought a 2013, 3.0d, 70k mile Infiniti FX S a few months back for £11k to tide us over between leases and the never-ending new car delays. Coming from a 2019 Q5 and waiting on a Tucson, have ended up really liking the FX and thinking about keeping it and cancelling the lease! For the money I'd take it over an older German car every time.

My only complaint with it is the tax

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207017...

Edited by ilikejam on Tuesday 15th November 13:51

[Bendo]

RockDriver said:

Yeah, Infinity just doesn't do it for me.

I took another look at the two ML500s you've linked and neither of them have kilometers on their speedometer discs which is straight up weird, because absolute majority of UK cars have both. So this ruins it for me completely, because I need to cross continental Europe in this car and something tells me replacing the speedometer unit is neither fun nor cheap.
]

Mercs don't. The km/h is shown digitally.

[ZX10R NIN]

RockDriver said:

Yeah, Infinity just doesn't do it for me.

I took another look at the two ML500s you've linked and neither of them have kilometers on their speedometer discs which is straight up weird, because absolute majority of UK cars have both. So this ruins it for me completely, because I need to cross continental Europe in this car and something tells me replacing the speedometer unit is neither fun nor cheap.

You said BMW X5 4.8i wasn't too bad. I've read a bunch of "white smoke" horror stories about it when valve stem seals go. After some digging around apparently there's a garage outside Birmingham that specializes in that and the price is £950 (at least according to their website) which would be dirt cheap, considering most people end up paying thousands. I need to drive across continental Europe in December, I wonder if buying the car and just replacing stem seals as a preventative measure would be a good idea?

On Mercedes you just change to KMH when you get to Europe by changing it over on the dash display it takes less than a minute.

[RockDriver]

ZX10R NIN said:

On Mercedes you just change to KMH when you get to Europe by changing it over on the dash display it takes less than a minute.

Copy that. It's not very convenient though, I rather prefer to keep an eye on the dial.

Do you think it's worth it preemptively replacing valve seals on BMW E70 V8 engine (N62B48) before a long trip?

[ZX10R NIN]

RockDriver said:

Copy that. It's not very convenient though, I rather prefer to keep an eye on the dial.

Do you think it's worth it preemptively replacing valve seals on BMW E70 V8 engine (N62B48) before a long trip?

As you look at the speedo you'll have it showing on the central display in the middle of the speedo, it'll actually be clearer/more accurate than looking at the speedo.

If you plan on keeping it for a while then get the main preventative work done as in the timing chain/valve stem seals etc.

[RockDriver]

ZX10R NIN said:

As you look at the speedo you'll have it showing on the central display in the middle of the speedo, it'll actually be clearer/more accurate than looking at the speedo.

If you plan on keeping it for a while then get the main preventative work done as in the timing chain/valve stem seals etc.

Makes sense. I pulled the trigger on a 2009 E70 X5 V8. Has confirmed service history with BWM up to 2021 and overall looks well kept. Looked at couple of them and the first one was smoking like a chimney when revved - obvious sign of stem seals gone. The one I bought, the exhaust was crystal clear, couldn't notice any blue smoke, surprisingly.

Replacing stem seals and timing chain would be around a grand each. None of them are displaying signs of wear at the moment though. Correct me if my assumptions are wrong:

• Stem seal wear develops over time so if there's no evidence of it now even if it starts occurring during a long trip, I should be able to complete the trip without anything going critical.
• Right now there's no evidence of timing chain noise and it normally builds up over time getting worse. So even on a longer trip chances of it suddenly jumping off or snapping without prior signs are extremely low.

[ZX10R NIN]

Glad you got sorted OP