Should I follow this through?

[DB_1974]

For starters, I'm going to be deliberately vague with the details, so I don't breach the name and shame rules.

A couple of weeks ago, I paid a deposit on a used vehicle. In the conversation with the person on the other end of the call, he went away to check if said vehicle was still available, it was, deposit paid, happy days. Paid using my private credit card and recieved a sales order (with the reg number) back from the dealership almost immediately.

A couple of hours later the dealership called me and said that the vehicle had actually been sold a couple of days earlier, a deposit taken, apologised saying that it hadn't been taken off sale and offered a full refund.

I had doubts they were being genuine.

Fast forward to today, find same vehicle for sale, at a higher price, within the same dealer network.

So, as per the title, should I follow this through? Can I "insist" they honour the initial Sales Order

TIA

DB

Edited by DB_1974 on Saturday 6th September 20:42

[DB_1974]

Could I push them to honour the initial Sales Order at the original price

[ScoobyChris]

DB_1974 said:

Could I push them to honour the initial Sales Order at the original price

Did you accept the full refund of the deposit?

[Tisy]

DB_1974 said:

Could I push them to honour the initial Sales Order at the original price

What did they say when you phoned them and asked them, seeing as only they will have the answer to your question?

[DB_1974]

Didn't get chance to refuse. They had already refunded it back on the card when they called

I've only just seen it for sale on autotrader, so haven't spoken to them yet.

DB

[ScoobyChris]

DB_1974 said:

Didn't get chance to refuse. They had already refunded it back on the card when they called

I've only just seen it for sale on autotrader, so haven't spoken to them yet.

DB

I think that’s your answer then….

[TimmyMallett]

I'm not sure what the question is.

Can you think you're entitled to tell someone how to sell a car at whatever price they want to?

Yes. You can.

Move on.

[Boringvolvodriver]

DB_1974 said:

Didn't get chance to refuse. They had already refunded it back on the card when they called

I've only just seen it for sale on autotrader, so haven't spoken to them yet.

DB

So they have cancelled the sale and given you the deposit back. Apart from highlighting their actions, then I don’t think you have anything to follow through on. It is underhand certainly but they haven’t done anything you can complain about imo.

What is the price difference?

Maybe give them a call and explain what happened and see if they will sell the car to you at the previously agreed price.

[Simpo Two]

But do they have a right to cancel a sale? If yes, what point is a deposit? I guess it's a contract law question.

[kestral]

DB_1974 said:

For starters, I'm going to be deliberately vague with the details, so I don't breach the name and shame rules.

A couple of weeks ago, I paid a deposit on a used vehicle. In the conversation with the person on the other end of the call, he went away to check if said vehicle was still available, it was, deposit paid, happy days. Paid using my private credit card and recieved a sales order (with the reg number) back from the dealership almost immediately.

A couple of hours later the dealership called me and said that the vehicle had actually been sold a couple of days earlier, a deposit taken, apologised saying that it hadn't been taken off sale and offered a full refund.

I had doubts they were being genuine.

Fast forward to today, find same vehicle for sale, at a higher price, within the same dealer network.

So, as per the title, should I follow this through? Can I "insist" they honour the initial Sales Order

TIA

DB

Edited by DB_1974 on Saturday 6th September 20:42

Have you spoke to the dealer to ask what is going on?

If you want to enforce you could sue for breach of contract providing the contract was to sell the car to you, but the only damages you would be able to claim are those if any between the price of the original contract and the price of a car of the same quality.

So in short if you can buy a car of the same quality for the same or less amount then you would be wasting your time trying to enforce.

[ADJimbo]

Simpo Two said:

But do they have a right to cancel a sale? If yes, what point is a deposit? I guess it's a contract law question.

Contractually a deposit is just that - it is an advance / initial payment made by a buyer, to a seller. to demonstrate serious intent to purchase something whilst providing security for the seller that the contract will be performed by the buyer. The seller has every right to ‘cancel the sale’ as the contract, whilst offered and accepted by both parties has not yet been considered and can be legally withdrawn as in this case - the seller will/would argue that there was a ‘unilateral mistake’ in the price offered and therefore if there was a contract in place, it is now invalidated.

As the deposit has been immediately returned and from what I’ve read, the purchaser (OP) is not out of pocket then this will go no-where legally.

TL:DR - Basically, yes they can cancel the sale. It’s still their car and they can sell it to who they want and for what price they want.

The OP can of course recommence negotiations at the revised price but I doubt he’ll want to do so.

[Simpo Two]

ADJimbo said:

Contractually a deposit is just that - it is an advance / initial payment made by a buyer, to a seller. to demonstrate serious intent to purchase something whilst providing security for the seller that the contract will be performed by the buyer. The seller has every right to ‘cancel the sale’ as the contract, whilst offered and accepted by both parties has not yet been considered and can be legally withdrawn as in this case - the seller will/would argue that there was a ‘unilateral mistake’ in the price offered and therefore if there was a contract in place, it is now invalidated.

As the deposit has been immediately returned and from what I’ve read, the purchaser (OP) is not out of pocket then this will go no-where legally.

Interesting, thanks.

The new term to me here is 'considered'. It seems to be another stage. Would a seller not 'consider' the deposit before they accept it, or do they think 'Woot, here's some cash, let us now consider it and perhaps if we don't like it we'll give it back'? Why is the consideration not deemed to have been done by the time the seller says 'Yes we will sell you the car if you pay us £X deposit'...?

[ADJimbo]

Simpo Two said:

ADJimbo said:

Contractually a deposit is just that - it is an advance / initial payment made by a buyer, to a seller. to demonstrate serious intent to purchase something whilst providing security for the seller that the contract will be performed by the buyer. The seller has every right to ‘cancel the sale’ as the contract, whilst offered and accepted by both parties has not yet been considered and can be legally withdrawn as in this case - the seller will/would argue that there was a ‘unilateral mistake’ in the price offered and therefore if there was a contract in place, it is now invalidated.

As the deposit has been immediately returned and from what I’ve read, the purchaser (OP) is not out of pocket then this will go no-where legally.

Interesting, thanks.

The new term to me here is 'considered'. It seems to be another stage. Would a seller not 'consider' the deposit before they accept it, or do they think 'Woot, here's some cash, let us now consider it and perhaps if we don't like it we'll give it back'? Why is the consideration not deemed to have been done by the time the seller says 'Yes we will sell you the car if you pay us £X deposit'...?

Considered aspect of the contract is the value that one party to the contract gives or offers to the other party/parties for the performance of that contract. Consideration can take place at any time by either party before the execution and conclusion of that contract - when money changes hands in effect.

It’s been the case in house purchases for years. I accept your offer of £100 to buy my house, we start the conveyancing process and then Mr. D. Duck comes into the mix and offers me £105 for my house then I’m free to sell it to him up unto completion. You could, in effect, litigate against me for your losses but it would be costly and difficult to do. You could not ‘force’ me to sell my house to you for the £100 we’d originally agreed.

The issue with the OP’s case is that the garage have increased the cost of the car.

[CloudStuff]

Any kind of curve ball around a car purchase / sale:

Immediate pile-on.
The OP MUST be to blame.

[996Type]

You could pursue “loss of bargain” (or threaten to do so) and see if they respond, it’s a known legal reference for this type of situation….

[Sheepshanks]

ADJimbo said:

Considered aspect of the contract is the value that one party to the contract gives or offers to the other party/parties for the performance of that contract. Consideration can take place at any time by either party before the execution and conclusion of that contract - when money changes hands in effect.

It’s been the case in house purchases for years. I accept your offer of £100 to buy my house, we start the conveyancing process and then Mr. D. Duck comes into the mix and offers me £105 for my house then I’m free to sell it to him up unto completion. You could, in effect, litigate against me for your losses but it would be costly and difficult to do. You could not ‘force’ me to sell my house to you for the £100 we’d originally agreed.

The issue with the OP’s case is that the garage have increased the cost of the car.

Property law is different to pretty well everything else - nothing is binding until exchange.

In the OPs case, what would the dealer have done if he changed his mind and asked for his deposit back? Likely the dealer’s first response would be to refuse - they might back down in the end but it would be messy.

[ADJimbo]

Sheepshanks said:

ADJimbo said:

Considered aspect of the contract is the value that one party to the contract gives or offers to the other party/parties for the performance of that contract. Consideration can take place at any time by either party before the execution and conclusion of that contract - when money changes hands in effect.

It’s been the case in house purchases for years. I accept your offer of £100 to buy my house, we start the conveyancing process and then Mr. D. Duck comes into the mix and offers me £105 for my house then I’m free to sell it to him up unto completion. You could, in effect, litigate against me for your losses but it would be costly and difficult to do. You could not ‘force’ me to sell my house to you for the £100 we’d originally agreed.

The issue with the OP’s case is that the garage have increased the cost of the car.

Property law is different to pretty well everything else - nothing is binding until exchange.

In the OPs case, what would the dealer have done if he changed his mind and asked for his deposit back? Likely the dealer’s first response would be to refuse - they might back down in the end but it would be messy.

I agree that property law is different to contract law but used it as a near relatable example of how you cannot ‘force’ a party into concluding a contract. You can only litigate against the party for the costs incurred arising from the breach.

It’s the same with the Poster whom mentioned loss of bargain. What has the OP financially lost through the non-performance of the contract?

In terms of the OP withdrawing and the Garages stance? Who knows…

[E63eeeeee...]

996Type said:

You could pursue “loss of bargain” (or threaten to do so) and see if they respond, it’s a known legal reference for this type of situation….

This is the answer. Or at least this is the answer if the cancellation scenario wasn't already allowed by the terms of any agreement made as part of the sale.

There have been a couple of previous threads on the subject of loss of bargain, it would be worth checking them out to get a sense of the options and challenges.

You'll notice if you do the volume of bad advice from people who think they know more about contract law than they do, mostly about a misunderstanding of consideration, as already demonstrated in this thread.

I don't pretend to be a proper expert on this subject, and IANAL, but I do know that the only consideration requirement for a legal contract is that there is agreed consideration (I.e. value) and that it is two-way - so if I wrote an agreement to give you ten quid for nothing, you couldn't enforce it as a contract because the consideration is only one way.

What the OP is interested in here is whether a contact was actually formed, and whether that contract had provision for the seller to cancel it by returning the deposit. If the OP agreed a price for a specific car and paid a deposit on the premise that was the purchase, rather than a deposit specifically to e.g. view and test drive it, there's a good chance a contract was formed. On the other hand, if there was a sales agreement or similar that the OP saw before making the deposit that included the ability for the seller to withdraw from the sale by returning the deposit, then there's not much you can do.

[E63eeeeee...]

ADJimbo said:

I agree that property law is different to contract law but used it as a near relatable example of how you cannot ‘force’ a party into concluding a contract. You can only litigate against the party for the costs incurred arising from the breach.

It’s the same with the Poster whom mentioned loss of bargain. What has the OP financially lost through the non-performance of the contract?

In terms of the OP withdrawing and the Garages stance? Who knows…

It's not different, it's just much more formal and structured when it's a house sale for obvious reasons. The exchange of contracts is the point at which the contract is formed, and the contract will include details of what happens if one party withdraws unilaterally (istr that last time I bought a house I would still have been liable to pay 10% of the agreed purchase price if I'd pulled out after exchange).

By breaching the contract to sell it to the OP the seller has deprived the OP of the difference between the agreed price and the presumably higher price they sell it to the next buyer at.

[QBee]

If you want to know more, ask the dealer nicely.
My first thought is that it is better for your own welbeing if you start out by believing that everyone is genuine and there must be a simple exlanation.

For example:
So he takes your deposit, realises that he has cocked up becuase someone has already placed an order and a deposit on the car, and honestly refunds your deposit without messing you about.

A few days later the first deposit holder changes his mind and asks for his deposit back.
Honest car dealer refunds that too.
Honest car dealer then puts the car back on sale and puts it down to the cost of doing business.
He slightly increases the price in an attempt to recover the extra advertising costs.

Do you really want to compound his misery by getting all huffy?
If you really still want the car, phone him, explain nicely who you are and offer to buy it for the same price as before.
His answer will tell you a lot.