Are French cars good again?
Discussion
After 20 years in almost exclusively German/Japanese cars, I just bought my wife a 2015 Renault Clio with the 0.9 turbo petrol engine and I have to say I'm quite taken with it. We moved back to the UK a couple of months ago and I foolishly went out and bought a 1.25 Fiesta before letting my wife drive it because you can't go wrong with a Fiesta for the money but unfortunately she didn't get on with it (couldn't get comfortable driving it), so I agreed to take it on as my car and buy her another car. We actually went to look at a mk1 Nissan Juke, because my wife saw one and liked the look of it and the driving position was more like her previous car (Mazda SUV) but the one we looked at was a little over our budget and the dealer had a little French racing blue Clio that was the same age parked in the corner of the lot that caught her eye, which was usefully cheaper, so we test drove it, both liked it and rather spontaneously bought it right then and there!
I still like the look of the Fiesta (2014, mk7?) and it drives nice but with only 60bhp it's a little gutless (I deliberately avoided a 1.0 Ecoboost for reliability reasons), so with the facelift model, if you don't want that engine, you're pretty much limited to the 1.25 or the ST, which I would have loved but would have been out of budget and too expensive to insure (as we have been out of the country for a few years, we already pay 700 pounds pa to insure the Fiesta)! I have to concede that I enjoy driving the Renault more. It looks quite sporty, turns in really well, has a snickier gearshift and with 90bhp and a turbo pulling just over a tonne, it's surprisingly quick if you keep it on the boil thanks to shortish gearing. If only superminis had 90bhp in the 90s, I had to make do with 50-60bhp, 90bhp was warm hatch territory! I hadn't fully appreciated that anyone still made small, fun cars. It has sat nav and cruise control too, which are 2 features that my Fiesta Zetec lacks. Someone will be along in a minute to say that the Renault engines are just as problematic as the "wet belt" Ford/Peugeot/Citroen ones but I know that the 0.9 turbo Renault engine has a timing chain, so that was somewhat reassuring, although it does seem a bit more vibratory than the Puretech engine (my parents have a Puretech-engined Citroen).
Peugeot/Citroen/Renault made some great cars in the 90s. My dad had a 405/ZX/Xsara TD in quick succession and they were all fantastic cars and my uncle had a mk1 Renault Laguna, which was a really nice car. I grew up as a bit of a Peugeot fan with pretty cars that drove well like the 205/306/405/406 and the 205 GTi was my dream attainable car that I eventually owned in the early 2000s and completely lived up to the hype for me but the French car makers really took a nosedive in the 2000s with low quality, unreliable junk like the 307/Xsara Picasso/Megane II/Laguna II and as a result, I haven't really looked at a French car seriously since.
I'm of the age where a BMW/Mercedes was the car to aspire to and you were getting a better built, better engineered car for your money but looking at their more recent efforts, I'm left a little cold and not convinced that your money buys you a better car any more. In contrast, Renault seem to be killing it, especially with their EV models, the new Dacia Duster looks great and Peugeot have some fantastic-looking models (208, 508 etc), a 508 even appeals to me over a 3-Series purely based on looks right now. Not so sure about Citroen, they have jumped the shark a little for me but if you include Vauxhall, the latest Corsa/Astra/Mokka also look very appealing, although the problematic 1.2 Puretech petrol engines put me off the Stellantis group cars somewhat.
Ideally I'd like something a bit bigger than the Fiesta and probably diesel, as I have a 30 mile commute, so would I be crazy to consider a 2nd gen Peugeot 308/Megane 4 over the usual suspects (Golf/Focus/Astra)? I think that the Peugeot/Renault, particularly the Renault are both great-looking cars and on the face of it offer more car for the money (budget up to 5k) and a newer low mileage car than the VAG equivalent. My previous car was a mk7 Golf which I owned for 6 years and took up to 220,000km and what a brilliant and reliable car it was. If I didn't get a 308/Megane, I'd probably go for a SEAT Leon FR or a Skoda Octavia though, as you get a bit more car for your money than with the Golf. So are the 2nd gen Peugeot 308/Megane 4 good used buys or will they just be unreliable and break constantly like the French cars of old?
I still like the look of the Fiesta (2014, mk7?) and it drives nice but with only 60bhp it's a little gutless (I deliberately avoided a 1.0 Ecoboost for reliability reasons), so with the facelift model, if you don't want that engine, you're pretty much limited to the 1.25 or the ST, which I would have loved but would have been out of budget and too expensive to insure (as we have been out of the country for a few years, we already pay 700 pounds pa to insure the Fiesta)! I have to concede that I enjoy driving the Renault more. It looks quite sporty, turns in really well, has a snickier gearshift and with 90bhp and a turbo pulling just over a tonne, it's surprisingly quick if you keep it on the boil thanks to shortish gearing. If only superminis had 90bhp in the 90s, I had to make do with 50-60bhp, 90bhp was warm hatch territory! I hadn't fully appreciated that anyone still made small, fun cars. It has sat nav and cruise control too, which are 2 features that my Fiesta Zetec lacks. Someone will be along in a minute to say that the Renault engines are just as problematic as the "wet belt" Ford/Peugeot/Citroen ones but I know that the 0.9 turbo Renault engine has a timing chain, so that was somewhat reassuring, although it does seem a bit more vibratory than the Puretech engine (my parents have a Puretech-engined Citroen).
Peugeot/Citroen/Renault made some great cars in the 90s. My dad had a 405/ZX/Xsara TD in quick succession and they were all fantastic cars and my uncle had a mk1 Renault Laguna, which was a really nice car. I grew up as a bit of a Peugeot fan with pretty cars that drove well like the 205/306/405/406 and the 205 GTi was my dream attainable car that I eventually owned in the early 2000s and completely lived up to the hype for me but the French car makers really took a nosedive in the 2000s with low quality, unreliable junk like the 307/Xsara Picasso/Megane II/Laguna II and as a result, I haven't really looked at a French car seriously since.
I'm of the age where a BMW/Mercedes was the car to aspire to and you were getting a better built, better engineered car for your money but looking at their more recent efforts, I'm left a little cold and not convinced that your money buys you a better car any more. In contrast, Renault seem to be killing it, especially with their EV models, the new Dacia Duster looks great and Peugeot have some fantastic-looking models (208, 508 etc), a 508 even appeals to me over a 3-Series purely based on looks right now. Not so sure about Citroen, they have jumped the shark a little for me but if you include Vauxhall, the latest Corsa/Astra/Mokka also look very appealing, although the problematic 1.2 Puretech petrol engines put me off the Stellantis group cars somewhat.
Ideally I'd like something a bit bigger than the Fiesta and probably diesel, as I have a 30 mile commute, so would I be crazy to consider a 2nd gen Peugeot 308/Megane 4 over the usual suspects (Golf/Focus/Astra)? I think that the Peugeot/Renault, particularly the Renault are both great-looking cars and on the face of it offer more car for the money (budget up to 5k) and a newer low mileage car than the VAG equivalent. My previous car was a mk7 Golf which I owned for 6 years and took up to 220,000km and what a brilliant and reliable car it was. If I didn't get a 308/Megane, I'd probably go for a SEAT Leon FR or a Skoda Octavia though, as you get a bit more car for your money than with the Golf. So are the 2nd gen Peugeot 308/Megane 4 good used buys or will they just be unreliable and break constantly like the French cars of old?
Edited by Starsky80 on Thursday 29th January 11:49
Edited by Starsky80 on Thursday 29th January 11:53
Edited by Starsky80 on Thursday 29th January 11:54
Edited by Starsky80 on Thursday 29th January 15:37
Megane4 GT205 is a very good used buy you must seek the 1.6L petrol engine though! It does not have the timing chain issues the 1.2L engine has.
Its pretty fast also when it wants to be 143mph sub 8 seconds 0-60 plus it has 4 Control (4 wheel steer cornering system). 205 bhp + 280 nm.
Look for a 2017-18 model not many to choose from few decent ones come up for sale nowadays either. I looked for almost a year to get one as a 2nd car could not find the colour & spec I wanted so gave up in the end.
Its pretty fast also when it wants to be 143mph sub 8 seconds 0-60 plus it has 4 Control (4 wheel steer cornering system). 205 bhp + 280 nm.
Look for a 2017-18 model not many to choose from few decent ones come up for sale nowadays either. I looked for almost a year to get one as a 2nd car could not find the colour & spec I wanted so gave up in the end.
Edited by RS_MAN_CHILD on Thursday 29th January 16:33
They are definately knocking the ball out of the park looks wise
The Peugeot steering wheel/dash view is a bit marmite though
The German's seem to be trying to out do each other with the ugly stick
As a serial buyer of small Italian and French cars I can't say I've ever had any major issues with any of them
The Peugeot steering wheel/dash view is a bit marmite though
The German's seem to be trying to out do each other with the ugly stick
As a serial buyer of small Italian and French cars I can't say I've ever had any major issues with any of them
RS_MAN_CHILD said:
Megane4 GT205 is a very good used buy you must seek the 1.6L petrol engine though! It does not have the timing chain issues the 1.2L engine has.
Its pretty fast also when it wants to be 143mph sub 8 seconds 0-60 plus it has 4 Control (4 wheel steer cornering system). 205 bhp + 280 nm.
Look for a 2017-18 model not many to choose from few decent ones come up for sae nowadays either. I looked for almost a year to get one as a 2nd car could not find the colour & spec I wanted so gave up in the end.
Was looking more at the 1.5 dCi models. Timing belt engine but a lot of the ones that I have seen advertised have had this changed already.Its pretty fast also when it wants to be 143mph sub 8 seconds 0-60 plus it has 4 Control (4 wheel steer cornering system). 205 bhp + 280 nm.
Look for a 2017-18 model not many to choose from few decent ones come up for sae nowadays either. I looked for almost a year to get one as a 2nd car could not find the colour & spec I wanted so gave up in the end.
We've had extended test drives of a couple of the latest Renault EV's (R4 & R5) and they are very, very good and also seemed decent value..
A lot of thought seems to be put into their design both in looks and also in practical terms/usability. If we'd been up for moving to electric, we'd definitely have bought one.
For balance, we also tested a Symbioz which was rubbish but that car felt like some kind of halfway house between their older and newer stuff.
A lot of thought seems to be put into their design both in looks and also in practical terms/usability. If we'd been up for moving to electric, we'd definitely have bought one.
For balance, we also tested a Symbioz which was rubbish but that car felt like some kind of halfway house between their older and newer stuff.
They had a very shaky period around 2003 to 2009 with cars such as the Megane MK2 Phase 1, Scenic MK2 Phase 1, Laguna MK3 Phase 1. Lots and lots of electrical problems. These were mostly all fixed with the Phase two models.
I would say 2009 and on they are good, infact I am currently driving a 2011 Megane MK3 Coupe with the 1.4 TCE engine and it is great.
The only caveat for this is avoid the 1.2 TCE engine as this suffers from oil burning and chain issues.
I would say 2009 and on they are good, infact I am currently driving a 2011 Megane MK3 Coupe with the 1.4 TCE engine and it is great.
The only caveat for this is avoid the 1.2 TCE engine as this suffers from oil burning and chain issues.
Renault aren't "good", they're just less worse than some cars such as Peugeot/Citroen 1.2 Puretech, Ford 1.0 Ecoboost, Ingenium 2.0 diesel, etc. There was a spell when the Laguna (I think it was Mk2) was a "do not buy, do not take in as part ex" for many dealers, because pretty much all of them developed bizarre electrical issues. I think its too early to say whether they're reliable long term. Certainly, working on them, the way they have laid out some of the stuff in the ECU software/diagnostic codes/etc is bizarre and unfathomable (I had a weird code for cruise control failure, Alldata tried but reached a dead-end for manufacturer level tech data to solve it).
Peugeot were good in the 504-505 era but that was 30 years ago.
Nowadays Peugeot/Citroen are seen as an "economy" brand and simply don't have the durability, look at the secondhand prices of 10+ year old cars.
I'd say most manufacturers outclassed them but a few shot themselves in the foot recently, eg anything with a wet belt; VW DQ200 DSG; VW 2.0 bi-turbo diesel.
Peugeot were good in the 504-505 era but that was 30 years ago.
Nowadays Peugeot/Citroen are seen as an "economy" brand and simply don't have the durability, look at the secondhand prices of 10+ year old cars.
I'd say most manufacturers outclassed them but a few shot themselves in the foot recently, eg anything with a wet belt; VW DQ200 DSG; VW 2.0 bi-turbo diesel.
I'd suggest looking at the Astra/GTC you'll get a lot of car for your money & they're good cars:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202501158...
2.0d SRI:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601189...
Astra 1.6d Elite Nav:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601068...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601239...
Renault Dynamique Nav:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601299...
1.6d 308 (these share the same 1.6d with the Astra above) GT Line:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601249...
the 2.0d is the pick:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601239...
1.6d DS5:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601089...
Most cars are decent/reliable these days as most share the same components/software, there will always be specific models/engines to avoid but in general with your requirements the above are easily on par with a VAG equivalent.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202501158...
2.0d SRI:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601189...
Astra 1.6d Elite Nav:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601068...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601239...
Renault Dynamique Nav:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601299...
1.6d 308 (these share the same 1.6d with the Astra above) GT Line:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601249...
the 2.0d is the pick:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601239...
1.6d DS5:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202601089...
Most cars are decent/reliable these days as most share the same components/software, there will always be specific models/engines to avoid but in general with your requirements the above are easily on par with a VAG equivalent.
standards said:
That was my question too! When was this Gallic Automobile Golden Age?
From the mid 80's to the late 90's. Peugeot 205,405,406,306,106. All class leading in their class. The hot versions topping pretty much all head to heads.
Citroen had the XM, Xantia, Xsara, Saxo plus the hydro suspension system.
Renault had lots of weird stuff during that time with the Safrane Turbo, Spider, Clio Williams. The Espace was also a pretty huge deal too.
Then with motorsport you had Peugeot winning at Lemans twice in the early 90's. Renault was the dominant F1 engine of the 90's. Renault winning the BTCC in 1997. French cars were pretty dominant in the F2 kit car class in WRC during the 90's and would go onto to dominate the turn of the century for a decade in WRC proper.
French cars have generally always been good especially when compared to similar British fare. They had a wobble in the nineties with lacklustre designs and ropey reliability but they’re as good as anything else mainstream. It’s the German stuff that was once peerless that are now no more reliable and still pretty boring to look at.
Renault are knocking it out of the park at the moment but I wish they’d have more petrol engine options within their electric design range. Peugeot and Citroen are all fresh and modern with good engines (if looked after). Too many people buy them and then forget they need maintaining and then wonder why they’re having issues.
Renault are knocking it out of the park at the moment but I wish they’d have more petrol engine options within their electric design range. Peugeot and Citroen are all fresh and modern with good engines (if looked after). Too many people buy them and then forget they need maintaining and then wonder why they’re having issues.
RS_MAN_CHILD said:
Starsky80 said:
Was looking more at the 1.5 dCi models. Timing belt engine but a lot of the ones that I have seen advertised have had this changed already.
Diesel are boring to drive though stick to the 1.6L petrol version!The 1.5 DCI will have much more torque than the 1.6 petrol, and be more responsive as a result. Also much more economical and ( if before 2017) cheaper to tax.
You would have to red line the 1.6 everywhere to make it move properly.
Back in 1999 I had a Peugeot 106 GTi, which was not only a decent looking car (at the time) but also good fun, as were many of their offerings at the time.
That was the last time I’d driven a Peugeot - most of what they built that was pretty s
t by comparison, not only on looks but also from a reliability pov. (Remember the 1006..? )
Fast forward to 2024 and my daughter bought a 208 GT.
Whilst not the fastest out there, it’s actually a very decent car, I particularly like the look of it.
So far, it’s been reliable.
It’s actually quite decent to drive and is a decent place to sit (save for the previously mentioned dash / steering wheel combo - daughter finds it fine, I struggle with the view)
That was the last time I’d driven a Peugeot - most of what they built that was pretty s
t by comparison, not only on looks but also from a reliability pov. (Remember the 1006..? )Fast forward to 2024 and my daughter bought a 208 GT.
Whilst not the fastest out there, it’s actually a very decent car, I particularly like the look of it.
So far, it’s been reliable.
It’s actually quite decent to drive and is a decent place to sit (save for the previously mentioned dash / steering wheel combo - daughter finds it fine, I struggle with the view)
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