EV - public charging, maybe not so bad?
Discussion
Looking for some help with man-maths as I might be missing things.
I can't charge at home, so everyone says that a PHEV and EV won't be suitable for me because of the cost of public charging. However, when I start looking at the cost per mile, it seems to be more dependent on what you are comparing it to.
Obviously when comparing to home charging there's no comparison, but my current car is about 20mpg due to the short journeys, which presumably an EV will be better suited to.
-> Current car @ 20mpg using E5 @ 188.6ppl is about 42.9 pence per mile according to AI.
-> EV getting 3.5 miles per kWh using a rapid 50 kW+ charger at 82p/kWh is about 24p per mile.
So compared to my current car, even using rapid chargers I'm considerably cheaper and have a better suited car for short journeys. My only concern is not getting access to a rapid charger for the 60 mins I'd need. There are a few ones not too far away where I can spend a hour having lunch and I'd probably only need to charge one a week at the most if the car has decent range, but the fear is still there.
There's also the 3p per mile thing, but for my mileage it's not too bad unless this Government start going crazy on it. PHEV's are probably not worth it because the limited range means I'd be charging all of the time and most likely at a slow 7kW.
Am I missing anything here?
I can't charge at home, so everyone says that a PHEV and EV won't be suitable for me because of the cost of public charging. However, when I start looking at the cost per mile, it seems to be more dependent on what you are comparing it to.
Obviously when comparing to home charging there's no comparison, but my current car is about 20mpg due to the short journeys, which presumably an EV will be better suited to.
-> Current car @ 20mpg using E5 @ 188.6ppl is about 42.9 pence per mile according to AI.
-> EV getting 3.5 miles per kWh using a rapid 50 kW+ charger at 82p/kWh is about 24p per mile.
So compared to my current car, even using rapid chargers I'm considerably cheaper and have a better suited car for short journeys. My only concern is not getting access to a rapid charger for the 60 mins I'd need. There are a few ones not too far away where I can spend a hour having lunch and I'd probably only need to charge one a week at the most if the car has decent range, but the fear is still there.
There's also the 3p per mile thing, but for my mileage it's not too bad unless this Government start going crazy on it. PHEV's are probably not worth it because the limited range means I'd be charging all of the time and most likely at a slow 7kW.
Am I missing anything here?
Only that you'd never sit at a charger for 60 mins.
It's a far better use of your time to charge from low, say ~10% SoC, to around 80%, maybe 15-20 mins.
The last 20% takes probably as long again so it's not worth it, far better just to do a quick charge again somewhere else one you get a bit low.
The use case for charging to 100% is overnight at home/destination when you have a big trip the next morning, the rest of the time it's just not really necessary or sensible.
And now, something for our usual OT merchants...
Notice to you (yes, YOU): We all know that a petrol tank can be brimmed in under five minutes. We've all done it, most of us for 30+ years, and many of us continue to do so. Please don't be dull and predictable.
It's a far better use of your time to charge from low, say ~10% SoC, to around 80%, maybe 15-20 mins.
The last 20% takes probably as long again so it's not worth it, far better just to do a quick charge again somewhere else one you get a bit low.
The use case for charging to 100% is overnight at home/destination when you have a big trip the next morning, the rest of the time it's just not really necessary or sensible.
And now, something for our usual OT merchants...
Notice to you (yes, YOU): We all know that a petrol tank can be brimmed in under five minutes. We've all done it, most of us for 30+ years, and many of us continue to do so. Please don't be dull and predictable.
Edited by loudlashadjuster on Thursday 12th November 11:09
Your maths is about right although I make it 23.4p / mile on the EV using your provided figures. Using rapid DC chargers, I'd expect you to lose about 3 - 4%, so 24p is correct. 
On AC with a 3 pin plug at home overnight, I lose over 20% in the winter. 
You can get even a rapid charger cheaper than that. Ionity, Tesla and I'm sure others have a discounted rate if you subscribe about £10 per month, well worth it if you charge frequently. I used a Tesla Supercharger in Devon (Darts Farm) a week ago that was 30p per kWh if you plugged in before 8am, without a subscription.
ETA: After you enter your car details into the Tesla app, it only shows you chargers that are open to you.
On AC with a 3 pin plug at home overnight, I lose over 20% in the winter. You can get even a rapid charger cheaper than that. Ionity, Tesla and I'm sure others have a discounted rate if you subscribe about £10 per month, well worth it if you charge frequently. I used a Tesla Supercharger in Devon (Darts Farm) a week ago that was 30p per kWh if you plugged in before 8am, without a subscription.
ETA: After you enter your car details into the Tesla app, it only shows you chargers that are open to you.
Edited by sixor8 on Thursday 12th November 11:10
If you're comparing to a car that does 20mpg and must be fed expensive E5 petrol, then yes the maths seems about right.
I did a similar comparison, where we compared my girlfriend's electric car to my diesel, for a holiday trip. The electric has the advantage that you can leave home fully charged and return empty, but any intermediate charging needed is going to be at costly chargers. And you have to plan around the time it takes to charge, too.
I did a calculation and the "equivalent" mpg of a diesel to cost the same, was about 35mpg. So naturally, my 60mpg diesel cost significantly less in "fuel" to do a long trip.
I did a similar comparison, where we compared my girlfriend's electric car to my diesel, for a holiday trip. The electric has the advantage that you can leave home fully charged and return empty, but any intermediate charging needed is going to be at costly chargers. And you have to plan around the time it takes to charge, too.
I did a calculation and the "equivalent" mpg of a diesel to cost the same, was about 35mpg. So naturally, my 60mpg diesel cost significantly less in "fuel" to do a long trip.
Thanks. Crickey, half price charging for £10 per month subscription sounds very tempting.
60min charge wouldn't be an issue if it were just once per week as I can have lunch during that time, but 20 mins sounds better for 80%. We are going to do more touring around the UK and there now appears to be an abundance of public chargers when looking at zapmap and up-to-date info on them being available or not.
I know almost nothing about public chargers, the subscriptions, the connection types etc. For example, is Tesla compatible with all chargers?
The other thing is that I've not looked into any issues with EV's, as in their reliability. I'm not sure if buying outright would be the best way, or would PCP or Leasing be better?
60min charge wouldn't be an issue if it were just once per week as I can have lunch during that time, but 20 mins sounds better for 80%. We are going to do more touring around the UK and there now appears to be an abundance of public chargers when looking at zapmap and up-to-date info on them being available or not.
I know almost nothing about public chargers, the subscriptions, the connection types etc. For example, is Tesla compatible with all chargers?
The other thing is that I've not looked into any issues with EV's, as in their reliability. I'm not sure if buying outright would be the best way, or would PCP or Leasing be better?
ninjag said:
I know almost nothing about public chargers, the subscriptions, the connection types etc. For example, is Tesla compatible with all chargers?
A Tesla can charge at any charger.Tesla Supercharger charging stations are split into two categories, some are exclusively for Tesla cars, others will charge any EV. If you have a non-Tesla it's quite easy to use their app to find those stations you can use.
Look for slow chargers at places you'll be parked anyway. Ideally ones on residential streets near where you live and will be parking overnight but those are relatively rare in the UK. Are there any chargers near your work/gym/supermarket/etc that you could use while doing something else? Waiting while the car charges seems barking to me other than the occasional rapid charge on a long trip.
If you don't have regularly access to a charger a PHEV might not be the best idea, yes you have the petrol engine for the times you can't charge, but you'll need to charge 5 or 6 times more frequently. Plus many are AC only can't use fast chargers (max charge speed on mine is 6.6kW)
If you don't have regularly access to a charger a PHEV might not be the best idea, yes you have the petrol engine for the times you can't charge, but you'll need to charge 5 or 6 times more frequently. Plus many are AC only can't use fast chargers (max charge speed on mine is 6.6kW)
ninjag said:
Looking for some help with man-maths as I might be missing things.
I can't charge at home, so everyone says that a PHEV and EV won't be suitable for me because of the cost of public charging. However, when I start looking at the cost per mile, it seems to be more dependent on what you are comparing it to.
Obviously when comparing to home charging there's no comparison, but my current car is about 20mpg due to the short journeys, which presumably an EV will be better suited to.
-> Current car @ 20mpg using E5 @ 188.6ppl is about 42.9 pence per mile according to AI.
-> EV getting 3.5 miles per kWh using a rapid 50 kW+ charger at 82p/kWh is about 24p per mile.
So compared to my current car, even using rapid chargers I'm considerably cheaper and have a better suited car for short journeys. My only concern is not getting access to a rapid charger for the 60 mins I'd need. There are a few ones not too far away where I can spend a hour having lunch and I'd probably only need to charge one a week at the most if the car has decent range, but the fear is still there.
There's also the 3p per mile thing, but for my mileage it's not too bad unless this Government start going crazy on it. PHEV's are probably not worth it because the limited range means I'd be charging all of the time and most likely at a slow 7kW.
Am I missing anything here?
You could get a more efficient IC car of course.I can't charge at home, so everyone says that a PHEV and EV won't be suitable for me because of the cost of public charging. However, when I start looking at the cost per mile, it seems to be more dependent on what you are comparing it to.
Obviously when comparing to home charging there's no comparison, but my current car is about 20mpg due to the short journeys, which presumably an EV will be better suited to.
-> Current car @ 20mpg using E5 @ 188.6ppl is about 42.9 pence per mile according to AI.
-> EV getting 3.5 miles per kWh using a rapid 50 kW+ charger at 82p/kWh is about 24p per mile.
So compared to my current car, even using rapid chargers I'm considerably cheaper and have a better suited car for short journeys. My only concern is not getting access to a rapid charger for the 60 mins I'd need. There are a few ones not too far away where I can spend a hour having lunch and I'd probably only need to charge one a week at the most if the car has decent range, but the fear is still there.
There's also the 3p per mile thing, but for my mileage it's not too bad unless this Government start going crazy on it. PHEV's are probably not worth it because the limited range means I'd be charging all of the time and most likely at a slow 7kW.
Am I missing anything here?
But personally, I would put a value on the time spent charging, unless you genuinely habitually hang around charging stations.
It's not just the actual minutes charging, it is a chore every 150 miles or whatever. You might only be charging for 20 minutes or whatever, but you have to divert to a charging station. That all takes time. I'm fine with that a few times a year, not a few times a month.
There is also the factor of your car not being always good for a quick trip somewhere, I like to know I've got 100 miles in the tank of at least one of the cars on the drive, in case I need to go somewhere urgently.
In the real world, the cost per mile is mostly depreciation, for any car, unless it's a real banger and you do a lot of miles.
Bin the man-maths and just buy one because you want one, and can accept the pros and cons. Or not!
You should also consider the availability of chargers at the times you will want to charge, my neighbour has an EV but no home charger so relies on chargers at a local sports centre which is a 5 min walk away, unfortunately when he wants to charge apparently so do a lot of others so he tells me he regularly has to come away again without any electric.
He doesn’t have a home charger because he rents the house.
He doesn’t have a home charger because he rents the house.
Good advice here!
A subscription to Tesla or Ionity for £9 to £10.50 unlocks much cheaper charging unit rates : 47p kWh on Ionity, so about 15p per mile.
Where do you get 3.6p ?You can't get that now - new rates are between 6.5p to 9p kWh
I fixed at 3.8p kWh in April, but those are long gone.
A subscription to Tesla or Ionity for £9 to £10.50 unlocks much cheaper charging unit rates : 47p kWh on Ionity, so about 15p per mile.
cliffords said:
POIDH said:
Home charging of course really makes it cheap. 3.6p here...
But yes, even using public charging EV should be cheaper. Add in lower servicing costs as well.
But yes, even using public charging EV should be cheaper. Add in lower servicing costs as well.
Where do you get 3.6p ?
I fixed at 3.8p kWh in April, but those are long gone.
ninjag said:
Cheers all, I've got a lot to think about.
An HEV would be the easiest solution, but they seem to be typically around 40mpg, which seems a little poor?
A mate seemed to get really good mpg from a Honda CRV hybrid.An HEV would be the easiest solution, but they seem to be typically around 40mpg, which seems a little poor?
Depends on the journeys you do and the traffic I think?
At the moment, 40mpg petrol is not too bad compared to 45mpg diesel.
45mpg diesel is 10 miles a litre, call it 20p per mile.
30mpg is 30p per mile
60mpg is 15p per mile?
Even running a shed, other costs over the year are likely to be £1k or more, which is another 10p per mile if you do 10k miles a year.
Having something shiny on the drive is £4k a year, 40p a mile?
So fretting about 40mpg compared to 45 or 50mpg is missing the point.
When you get down below 30mpg on a long run, it starts to matter.
I've had a couple of V6 cars which liked a drink and didn't have big tanks. A car with >500miles to a tank was a nice change.
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