Private seller is actually a dealer.
Discussion
Just wanted to get a few words of advice and or opinions please.
A couple of months back my niece starts looking for her first car. She'd saved a decent budget (10K) and wanted an Audi saloon. She found a car she liked on eBay and spoke to the seller. He stated that a new job now meant he had a company car so he had no need for the Audi. He said that he'd bought the car from a neighbour, who had actually worked at the local dealership, so had known the car for some time. She asked if there were any known issues or prior damage, accidents etc? He stated there were none and provided what looked to be a recent HPI check. He also said that he had the V5 (in his name) and would put a new MOT on the car prior to her collecting it. At this point they agreed the price (£10K) and she travelled up by train, with her mum for company.
Once they arrived at the station nearest the seller, he collected her in the Audi and drove to his home. Evidently he pointed out the home of the neighbour he'd bought the car from. Evidently her mum asked again, whether there was anything she should know about the car as it was going to be transporting a young mother and baby? He was quite clear that there was nothing untoward for either of them to worry about. She said she was happy, paid the guy his money and when they went to do the paperwork the seller couldn't find the V5! Obviously she should have done the V5 prior to paying the guy but she's naive in the ways of car buying, was excited at the prospect of having her first car and basically believed the guy as he appeared plausible. Huge mistake obviously. Anyway, he promised he would search his home with his wife and they would find and either post the V5 or add my niece's details as the new owner online.
While driving home she tried adding her mobile phone to the car via Bluetooth but was unable to do so. She stopped and called the seller who said that ''she probably needed the Audi application for her phone but, if it wouldn't work, he would cover the cost of repair''. Now that seems weird to me but the Bluetooth doesn't work and he has never paid for the repair.
She afforded the seller a day or so to find the V5 but when she called / text he claimed that he was ''on holiday but his housekeeper was searching and he would keep her posted''. It was at this point that my niece called me and told me what had been happening in relation to her purchase. I said the holiday story sounded like BS and a ploy to buy some time. I tried to call the seller myself but he wouldn't answer.
A week or so later the seller claimed the V5 had been found and sent to her. I did a registration check online and it confirmed that a new V5 had been issued. My niece rang the DVLA for advice and they said that a V5 had indeed been issued in her name but a male had attempted to add his details as a prior owner but understandably they could give her any further information than that. She did indeed receive a new V5 but there is a discrepancy related to the number of owners. At this point a full HPI check showed that the seller had bought the car from CoPart as salvage having been ''stolen and recovered''. (Hindsight is a wonderful thing!) The car has also developed a problem with the steering so is not being driven.
My niece has tried contacted the seller to resolve the matter but he has stopped responding. His last message was along the lines of ''If you think I've done something illegal go to the Police''.
A quick search showed the seller has several cars for sale via eBay and he is clearly a trader. My niece took screenshots of all the vehicles and has started a civil claim through the County Courts. She wasn't aware of his being a trader when she commenced proceedings but can she make the courts aware when proceedings start?
Obviously she should have walked away when the V5 wasn't present but that aside, if she can prove the seller is a trader will be be held to different trading laws as I believe?
Thanks in advance.
A couple of months back my niece starts looking for her first car. She'd saved a decent budget (10K) and wanted an Audi saloon. She found a car she liked on eBay and spoke to the seller. He stated that a new job now meant he had a company car so he had no need for the Audi. He said that he'd bought the car from a neighbour, who had actually worked at the local dealership, so had known the car for some time. She asked if there were any known issues or prior damage, accidents etc? He stated there were none and provided what looked to be a recent HPI check. He also said that he had the V5 (in his name) and would put a new MOT on the car prior to her collecting it. At this point they agreed the price (£10K) and she travelled up by train, with her mum for company.
Once they arrived at the station nearest the seller, he collected her in the Audi and drove to his home. Evidently he pointed out the home of the neighbour he'd bought the car from. Evidently her mum asked again, whether there was anything she should know about the car as it was going to be transporting a young mother and baby? He was quite clear that there was nothing untoward for either of them to worry about. She said she was happy, paid the guy his money and when they went to do the paperwork the seller couldn't find the V5! Obviously she should have done the V5 prior to paying the guy but she's naive in the ways of car buying, was excited at the prospect of having her first car and basically believed the guy as he appeared plausible. Huge mistake obviously. Anyway, he promised he would search his home with his wife and they would find and either post the V5 or add my niece's details as the new owner online.
While driving home she tried adding her mobile phone to the car via Bluetooth but was unable to do so. She stopped and called the seller who said that ''she probably needed the Audi application for her phone but, if it wouldn't work, he would cover the cost of repair''. Now that seems weird to me but the Bluetooth doesn't work and he has never paid for the repair.
She afforded the seller a day or so to find the V5 but when she called / text he claimed that he was ''on holiday but his housekeeper was searching and he would keep her posted''. It was at this point that my niece called me and told me what had been happening in relation to her purchase. I said the holiday story sounded like BS and a ploy to buy some time. I tried to call the seller myself but he wouldn't answer.
A week or so later the seller claimed the V5 had been found and sent to her. I did a registration check online and it confirmed that a new V5 had been issued. My niece rang the DVLA for advice and they said that a V5 had indeed been issued in her name but a male had attempted to add his details as a prior owner but understandably they could give her any further information than that. She did indeed receive a new V5 but there is a discrepancy related to the number of owners. At this point a full HPI check showed that the seller had bought the car from CoPart as salvage having been ''stolen and recovered''. (Hindsight is a wonderful thing!) The car has also developed a problem with the steering so is not being driven.
My niece has tried contacted the seller to resolve the matter but he has stopped responding. His last message was along the lines of ''If you think I've done something illegal go to the Police''.
A quick search showed the seller has several cars for sale via eBay and he is clearly a trader. My niece took screenshots of all the vehicles and has started a civil claim through the County Courts. She wasn't aware of his being a trader when she commenced proceedings but can she make the courts aware when proceedings start?
Obviously she should have walked away when the V5 wasn't present but that aside, if she can prove the seller is a trader will be be held to different trading laws as I believe?
Thanks in advance.
Niece will need to write to the dealer, basically giving him a chance to repair and warning him she'll take him to small claims. she will, need to get an estimate for repair from an independent garage and submit that to the dealer who will tell you to go away/he's got someone who'll do it for less. don't put up with any messing about, give the dealer a timefame (it's all on the internet) and stick to it then issue a claim.
Did she get it for "private sale" price or "dealer" price? Because there's a couple of thousands difference. If she got it at private sale price, can prove the seller is a dealer AND get all the things wrong with the car sorted for free (as in CRA2015 rights) she's won. If she paid retail, but none of those things come her way, she's lost.
Did she ask if he was trader? Why did the recent hpi not show the car as stolen recovered,why was it unrecorded?
Selling other cars doesn't make you a trader straight away. I'm not sore how law works if he says he was a private seller though.
Selling other cars doesn't make you a trader straight away. I'm not sore how law works if he says he was a private seller though.
Edited by Gt6turbo on Tuesday 6th May 17:57
paul_c123 said:
Did she get it for "private sale" price or "dealer" price? Because there's a couple of thousands difference. If she got it at private sale price, can prove the seller is a dealer AND get all the things wrong with the car sorted for free (as in CRA2015 rights) she's won. If she paid retail, but none of those things come her way, she's lost.
It was sold/purchased as a private sale. She didn't find out he was a dealer till later on and he's not yet aware that she knows. She's submitted a County Court claim against him and a date has been set for mediation later this month. His only response thus far was ''If you think I did something illegal tell the Police''.She really just wants her £10K back at this point. I don't know if that's a realistic option though?
If someone regularly sells cars on places like Facebook or Auto Trader but claims to be a private seller, they may be considered a backstreet trader; which is illegal. The law looks at behaviour, not just how someone describes themselves.
Indicators that someone is a dealer (even if they don’t say so):
Sells multiple cars in a short time.
Has trade insurance.
Offers to deliver or arrange finance.
Uses different names or contact numbers in ads.
Doesn’t have the V5C in their own name.
Based on the OP’s post, it sounds like the first point and the last point above are true.
The amount she paid is irrelevant.
Indicators that someone is a dealer (even if they don’t say so):
Sells multiple cars in a short time.
Has trade insurance.
Offers to deliver or arrange finance.
Uses different names or contact numbers in ads.
Doesn’t have the V5C in their own name.
Based on the OP’s post, it sounds like the first point and the last point above are true.
The amount she paid is irrelevant.
As you say "She asked if there were any known issues or prior damage, accidents etc? He stated there were none", this means he has done something illegal irrespective of whether he's a private seller or a dealer.
Recovering the money is another thing but it's illegal to lie about a car's history.
Recovering the money is another thing but it's illegal to lie about a car's history.
If he bought the car with the sole purpose of selling it for profit then he is a trader and the CRA will be on your side.
It also sounds like he misrepresented the car by saying he bought it from a neighbour and not copart.
Both will be of help to you if pursing a refund claim through the courts.
It also sounds like he misrepresented the car by saying he bought it from a neighbour and not copart.
Both will be of help to you if pursing a refund claim through the courts.
paul_c123 said:
Did she get it for "private sale" price or "dealer" price? Because there's a couple of thousands difference. If she got it at private sale price, can prove the seller is a dealer AND get all the things wrong with the car sorted for free (as in CRA2015 rights) she's won. If she paid retail, but none of those things come her way, she's lost.
Is there even a definition or a different book price for private as opposed to trade sales? Many private sellers ask as much for a car as dealers now. If not, this is of no evidentiary value at all. lornemalvo said:
Is there even a definition or a different book price for private as opposed to trade sales? Many private sellers ask as much for a car as dealers now. If not, this is of no evidentiary value at all.
Yes, its well defined. There's trade, private and retail price. Private price is typically in between trade and retail. The point being, if a trader is a trader anyway, why pretend to be a private seller and get a lower price? And if people are paying retail price from a private, well.......
paul_c123 said:
lornemalvo said:
Is there even a definition or a different book price for private as opposed to trade sales? Many private sellers ask as much for a car as dealers now. If not, this is of no evidentiary value at all.
Yes, its well defined. There's trade, private and retail price. Private price is typically in between trade and retail. The point being, if a trader is a trader anyway, why pretend to be a private seller and get a lower price? And if people are paying retail price from a private, well.......
Can't be a trader and a private seller. Legally it is one or the other.
If they have traders insurance which allows them to drive cars with no MOT or private insurance. So askMID the reg of a car, if it has no insurance then they are a trader, especially if they have more than one car. You cannot drive another car 3rd party if it is not insured. If this person then claims to be a trader then a simple phone call to the HMRC will resolve the issue.
If they have traders insurance which allows them to drive cars with no MOT or private insurance. So askMID the reg of a car, if it has no insurance then they are a trader, especially if they have more than one car. You cannot drive another car 3rd party if it is not insured. If this person then claims to be a trader then a simple phone call to the HMRC will resolve the issue.
paul_c123 said:
Yes, its well defined. There's trade, private and retail price. Private price is typically in between trade and retail.
The point being, if a trader is a trader anyway, why pretend to be a private seller and get a lower price? And if people are paying retail price from a private, well.......
Because (and as evidenced by his behaviour in the OP's post above) he doesn't want any issues coming back to him and being legally obligated to stand over them, as most traders would be. Never mind the HMRC tax implications and all that. There are many, many driveway 'traders' where I live and a lot of them advertise the cars via Facebook and Gumtree as private sales. Maximise profit, use burner phones, and then ignore the buyers when they have a problem a week or two later. The point being, if a trader is a trader anyway, why pretend to be a private seller and get a lower price? And if people are paying retail price from a private, well.......
loskie said:
Plus did he show your niece a fake HPI report?
The whole thing sounds like fraud to me.
It wasn't a fake report, just a low level one where all it confirms is the cars identity and that there's no outstanding finance. With hindsight she should have had her own full report done but she trusted the sellers word and was just excited at getting her first car I guess?The whole thing sounds like fraud to me.
She has screen shots that show his eBay account selling multiple vehicles. The courts have set a date for mediation at the end of this month.
Mark-BMW-E30-318is said:
It wasn't a fake report, just a low level one where all it confirms is the cars identity and that there's no outstanding finance. With hindsight she should have had her own full report done but she trusted the sellers word and was just excited at getting her first car I guess?
She has screen shots that show his eBay account selling multiple vehicles. The courts have set a date for mediation at the end of this month.
Shes done all she can for now.She has screen shots that show his eBay account selling multiple vehicles. The courts have set a date for mediation at the end of this month.
I'd have a clear record of all correspondence, including times of calls, unanswered calls, messages, etc.
She needs to be clear as to what she wants. If its money back.... that might be something the judge can order as a resolution but the mechanics of it actually being implemented are another thing.
Yes, all the warning signs were there - but yes, first car and the excitement of it etc.
Hope it all works out
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