My car still isn't running right, I may miss Silverstone...
Discussion
So frustrating...
I've had a few weird problems since collecting my car from Area52 back in March, it's like my car is possessed!
When I first collected the car it ran for some time before developing a problem on the M1 where the engine would be misfiring then jerking then running then bla bla bla. Undrivable. It seemed to be only once the car was up to temp (say 10-15mins after starting from cold)
Back it went to Area52 and a few problems were found. The water temp sensor was reading low and that would explain some poor running due to the ECU putting in too much fuel when up to temp. The oil pressure sensor was also faulty along with some tappets failing (ended up just replacing them all in 1 bank) and an oil leak on the sump. The exhaust was re-wrapped due to the Urban Racing stuff falling apart and all the coil packs were replaced!
I picked the car up last weekend again and before I could take it away it began mis-firing and generally running like crap. I stayed at Area52 for the day and we tried to do a bit of fault finding.
Having not found an obvious reason we swapped my ECU for the one in MikeTs car (suspected a component on the board being affected by heat). The problem went away instantly. I could not drive the car hard as Mikes ECU has been mapped with smaller turbos fitted and hence would run lean if I boosted heavily. But smooth running at full temp and full heat soak. Problem solved we thought!
It was late in the day and we decided it was worth me driving the car back to Newcastle and to head back down the following weekend (today) to have it mapped to my turbos. Also to allow my ECU to be sent to MBE to be checked out. Thinking putting the 300mile round trip on the car would be a good check of all the mechanical work that had been carried out. The car ran faultlessly. Stable temp, lost no oil, ran smooth etc. Of course I was never getting past 0.1/0.2 bar boost and never accelerating hard due to the map which was on it, being over cautious as well.
I arrived at Area52 today and the car went on the RR to be mapped. An hour and a half in and it started running like crap again, suspected misfiring on a couple of cylinders, but it just has no pull at all.
Similar fault symptom but surely not the same cause! That exact car has ran faultlessly doing over 300miles over the last week and then 1.5 hours on the rolling road then for no apparent reason it runs like crap again. Could the build up of heat on the dyno have failed another component??? This was the first time it started to run poorly whilst on the dyno and not the road first!?!
We let the car cool down outside for a while and then took it out on the M1 to try and see if the issue was purely heatsoak and the problem was still there consistently. We suspect it may be dropping 1 or 2 cylinders intermittently.
End result being; I'm on the train back to Newcastle (killing time by writing this on my phone) and will most likely not be in my Noble at Silverstone on tues night :-(
(that is if MikeT and the boys don't pull something spectacular out of the bag, which is entirely possible of course).
Thoughts:
We have replaced all the coils and plugs so it can't be them... I hope.
There was fluctuating lambda readings from the front bank and you can feel, by putting your hand over the exhaust tail pipes, the gasses coming out of the front bank are not as smooth as the rear bank! (the rear bank exhaust has always ran a little smoother than front since the first time I collected the car, using this highly accurate test method of course ;-)) This would rule out all components shared between the front and rear banks wouldn't it! Fuel pump etc.
As the car ran fine earlier in the day it would suggest to me something new has failed while on the dyno today. Even though the same symptoms have been seen recently!
As it is well known my car is on the original injectors, and as they are the only main fuel/spark component that hasn't been changed/upgraded I'm wondering if a couple of them have given up and the power runs on the dyno and heat etc have pushed them over the edge. They could quite possibly have been on the car for 8 years so you wouldn't be overly surprised.
MikeT and the Area52 boys will be methodically working through the problem starting Monday, and im in no doubt racking there brains over the rest of the weekend, but I'm interested in any theories/hypotheses/ideas people have??
It's ever so frustrating (for everyone involved) and I'm wondering if this car will ever run again. It's like it doesn't want to! It's one thing after another.
May well head to Silverstone anyway to see you lot but it's a bloody long way from Newcastle. Maybe I should trailer the car there and at least I made it haha.
Leaving you thoroughly confused (but having killed some time on this boring train journey)
Cheers
James
I've had a few weird problems since collecting my car from Area52 back in March, it's like my car is possessed!
When I first collected the car it ran for some time before developing a problem on the M1 where the engine would be misfiring then jerking then running then bla bla bla. Undrivable. It seemed to be only once the car was up to temp (say 10-15mins after starting from cold)
Back it went to Area52 and a few problems were found. The water temp sensor was reading low and that would explain some poor running due to the ECU putting in too much fuel when up to temp. The oil pressure sensor was also faulty along with some tappets failing (ended up just replacing them all in 1 bank) and an oil leak on the sump. The exhaust was re-wrapped due to the Urban Racing stuff falling apart and all the coil packs were replaced!
I picked the car up last weekend again and before I could take it away it began mis-firing and generally running like crap. I stayed at Area52 for the day and we tried to do a bit of fault finding.
Having not found an obvious reason we swapped my ECU for the one in MikeTs car (suspected a component on the board being affected by heat). The problem went away instantly. I could not drive the car hard as Mikes ECU has been mapped with smaller turbos fitted and hence would run lean if I boosted heavily. But smooth running at full temp and full heat soak. Problem solved we thought!
It was late in the day and we decided it was worth me driving the car back to Newcastle and to head back down the following weekend (today) to have it mapped to my turbos. Also to allow my ECU to be sent to MBE to be checked out. Thinking putting the 300mile round trip on the car would be a good check of all the mechanical work that had been carried out. The car ran faultlessly. Stable temp, lost no oil, ran smooth etc. Of course I was never getting past 0.1/0.2 bar boost and never accelerating hard due to the map which was on it, being over cautious as well.
I arrived at Area52 today and the car went on the RR to be mapped. An hour and a half in and it started running like crap again, suspected misfiring on a couple of cylinders, but it just has no pull at all.
Similar fault symptom but surely not the same cause! That exact car has ran faultlessly doing over 300miles over the last week and then 1.5 hours on the rolling road then for no apparent reason it runs like crap again. Could the build up of heat on the dyno have failed another component??? This was the first time it started to run poorly whilst on the dyno and not the road first!?!
We let the car cool down outside for a while and then took it out on the M1 to try and see if the issue was purely heatsoak and the problem was still there consistently. We suspect it may be dropping 1 or 2 cylinders intermittently.
End result being; I'm on the train back to Newcastle (killing time by writing this on my phone) and will most likely not be in my Noble at Silverstone on tues night :-(
(that is if MikeT and the boys don't pull something spectacular out of the bag, which is entirely possible of course).
Thoughts:
We have replaced all the coils and plugs so it can't be them... I hope.
There was fluctuating lambda readings from the front bank and you can feel, by putting your hand over the exhaust tail pipes, the gasses coming out of the front bank are not as smooth as the rear bank! (the rear bank exhaust has always ran a little smoother than front since the first time I collected the car, using this highly accurate test method of course ;-)) This would rule out all components shared between the front and rear banks wouldn't it! Fuel pump etc.
As the car ran fine earlier in the day it would suggest to me something new has failed while on the dyno today. Even though the same symptoms have been seen recently!
As it is well known my car is on the original injectors, and as they are the only main fuel/spark component that hasn't been changed/upgraded I'm wondering if a couple of them have given up and the power runs on the dyno and heat etc have pushed them over the edge. They could quite possibly have been on the car for 8 years so you wouldn't be overly surprised.
MikeT and the Area52 boys will be methodically working through the problem starting Monday, and im in no doubt racking there brains over the rest of the weekend, but I'm interested in any theories/hypotheses/ideas people have??
It's ever so frustrating (for everyone involved) and I'm wondering if this car will ever run again. It's like it doesn't want to! It's one thing after another.
May well head to Silverstone anyway to see you lot but it's a bloody long way from Newcastle. Maybe I should trailer the car there and at least I made it haha.
Leaving you thoroughly confused (but having killed some time on this boring train journey)
Cheers
James
So you think something is overheating?
You have eliminated the ECU but they do not suffer from thermal shock anyway.
The relays what Steve Said
Does it happen when you start turning up the juice?
Fuel pump?
Injectors?
Have you checked with a smoke tester around the air intake manifold for leaks?
You have eliminated the ECU but they do not suffer from thermal shock anyway.
The relays what Steve Said
Does it happen when you start turning up the juice?
Fuel pump?
Injectors?
Have you checked with a smoke tester around the air intake manifold for leaks?
The symptons sound like the fuel pump overheating/dieing... your working the fuel system hard (60hr more than anyone else) so I personally would be looking here first.
An 044 pump is only around £110 inclusive and you'd be able to up the pressure a bit (with a regulator) working the injectors less hard... Id bet the original injectors were not flow matched so you may have a less effiecent one in the bank with the issue and if the pump drops pressure a little it may struggle.
These things can be a nightmare to diognose so best of luck with it, be a shame to miss silverstone.
An 044 pump is only around £110 inclusive and you'd be able to up the pressure a bit (with a regulator) working the injectors less hard... Id bet the original injectors were not flow matched so you may have a less effiecent one in the bank with the issue and if the pump drops pressure a little it may struggle.
These things can be a nightmare to diognose so best of luck with it, be a shame to miss silverstone.
When the problem occurred on the dyno, what were the AFRs? Seems like you can narrow down the problem with the data that was being logged.
Is the problem load-dependent, RPM-dependent, throttle-position-dependent, or boost level dependent? Or all/none of the above? Does it happen at idle, or only when you're at WOT?
Is the problem load-dependent, RPM-dependent, throttle-position-dependent, or boost level dependent? Or all/none of the above? Does it happen at idle, or only when you're at WOT?
F.C. said:
It may be worth checking the fuel pipe to the pump isn't collapsing when everything is warm.
+1 If you have the original low pressure hose from tank to pump, this can collapse when the engine bay has been heat-soaked. It's v simple to replace with high pressure hose, and you may just find the stuttering disappears...RobP said:
F.C. said:
It may be worth checking the fuel pipe to the pump isn't collapsing when everything is warm.
+1 If you have the original low pressure hose from tank to pump, this can collapse when the engine bay has been heat-soaked. It's v simple to replace with high pressure hose, and you may just find the stuttering disappears...The value of this forum eh?
sjc said:
Hi RobP, Wasn't that the fault that you had that took an age to diagnose? On the basis of your thread a couple of years ago although I'dnever had the problem I had mine replaced with a high pressure one as "preventative" maintenance.
The value of this forum eh?
Hi Andy - yep, had us all stumped for some time. The 'stuttering' was so acute it just HAD to be electrical. But in the end it wasn't. Just a bit of fuel hose!The value of this forum eh?
Gutted James , was looking forward to our hanger straight blast :-)
I would look at the components most stressed , not a big fan of the STD fuel pump/tank setup but I also feel your injectors are at there limit as well so might be a good idea to upgrade them , very supprised Area 52 cannot see the problem on the dyno !!! As I would have thought a fueling issue would be straight forward to spot ?? Hope you get it sorted . Tux
I would look at the components most stressed , not a big fan of the STD fuel pump/tank setup but I also feel your injectors are at there limit as well so might be a good idea to upgrade them , very supprised Area 52 cannot see the problem on the dyno !!! As I would have thought a fueling issue would be straight forward to spot ?? Hope you get it sorted . Tux
thanks for all the suggestions guys, much appreciated.
I have to say generally i am tempted to upgrade some of the fuel system. I've upgraded bloody everything else so it's the weakest link even though it has performed in previous dyno tests!
i thought i could rule out fuel pump and collapsing pipe due to the hints of the problem only being in the front bank. would these affect both banks. although i'm wondering if that is a red herring and it could be the pump or fuel pipe. If its a known problem then why not change it hey.
I'll leave MikeT to it and see what they find next week but will keep you posted chaps.
I'm thinking if the car isn't sorted by Tuesday i'll bring my S2000 down and see if you can keep up!!!! ha
I have to say generally i am tempted to upgrade some of the fuel system. I've upgraded bloody everything else so it's the weakest link even though it has performed in previous dyno tests!
i thought i could rule out fuel pump and collapsing pipe due to the hints of the problem only being in the front bank. would these affect both banks. although i'm wondering if that is a red herring and it could be the pump or fuel pipe. If its a known problem then why not change it hey.
I'll leave MikeT to it and see what they find next week but will keep you posted chaps.
I'm thinking if the car isn't sorted by Tuesday i'll bring my S2000 down and see if you can keep up!!!! ha
TuxMan said:
Gutted James , was looking forward to our hanger straight blast :-)
I would look at the components most stressed , not a big fan of the STD fuel pump/tank setup but I also feel your injectors are at there limit as well so might be a good idea to upgrade them , very supprised Area 52 cannot see the problem on the dyno !!! As I would have thought a fueling issue would be straight forward to spot ?? Hope you get it sorted . Tux
I would look at the components most stressed , not a big fan of the STD fuel pump/tank setup but I also feel your injectors are at there limit as well so might be a good idea to upgrade them , very supprised Area 52 cannot see the problem on the dyno !!! As I would have thought a fueling issue would be straight forward to spot ?? Hope you get it sorted . Tux
we'll still have a blast even if i'm in the S2000 haha. 240bhp.... i reckon i'll have a chance!
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